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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2896 of 5179 (744905)
12-16-2014 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2895 by Faith
12-16-2014 7:28 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
Oh I thought you were a Christian. Or do you selective follow the tenets of your religion?
Lets see your argument.
Guns owners should not face regulations because some of them are bad. Moslems should be discriminated against, not just because some of them are bad, because they are all bad.
Did I get that right?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2895 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 7:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2897 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 9:21 PM Theodoric has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2897 of 5179 (744917)
12-16-2014 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2896 by Theodoric
12-16-2014 7:48 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
Lets see your argument.
Guns owners should not face regulations because some of them are bad. Moslems should be discriminated against, not just because some of them are bad, because they are all bad.
Of course you didn't get it right. When would you ever give a fair hearing to anything I said?
Where did I say anything about restricting regulations on guns? And where did I say anything about "Moslems?" They can have all the rights they want as long as they don't support their murderous ideology. You know, like we would give rights to people who obey the laws but not to people who commit crimes or even people who PLOT to commit crimes as soon as they get the firepower for it, which is what Islam does.
Can you read at all? All I said was that the vast majority of gun owners are responsible law-abiding citizens. That's ALL I said and you took off on your crackpot attempt to make something else of it. I was answering Ringo who said that the people who want guns are idiots. Which is a lie, which is why I answered it.
Straight to granting Muslims rights, as if that had ANY connection whatever to the topic. I figured it was just a typical PC potshot, can't ever agree with anything I say, THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICAN GUN OWNERS ARE RESPONSBLE LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS; got to find some way to try to pin something foul on me, anything at all. So yeah, well I guess she wants gun owners to have rights, but didn't she say she doesn't want Muslims to have rights? See now there's a moral equivalence PC can use, that makes evil good and good evil according to the PC formula. It's a PC crime to differentiate between good and evil, we certainly can't rightly support gun rights for the responsible law-abiding citizens and not (what kind of rights is not specified) for those who hold a murderous ideology. Oh no, we can't even point out there is such a thing as a murderous ideology. Unless it's Christianity, of course, so far gone is the good for evil and evil for good transfer. You all want, rightly, to keep mentally unstable people away from guns, but are perfectly happy to let Islam build up its power so it can wipe us all out.
May it come back and bite you in the butt SOON, so that if at all possible you might WAKE UP.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2896 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 7:48 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2898 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 9:35 PM Faith has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2898 of 5179 (744921)
12-16-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2897 by Faith
12-16-2014 9:21 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
You do realize we can read what you posted earlier don't you?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2897 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 9:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2899 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 9:38 PM Theodoric has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2899 of 5179 (744923)
12-16-2014 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2898 by Theodoric
12-16-2014 9:35 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
But so what? You never read anything I say correctly. You certainly made a mess with this current subject.
Oh I get it, you don't care about what I just said, you are going to dig up something you THINK contradicts it. But of course it doesn't, it's just you on your neverending PC vendetta and I'll have to correct your stupid misreading as usual. It just never stops. Why not just agree: THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICAN GUN-OWNERS ARE RESPONSIBLE LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS? Cuz, gosh, that's TRUE, it just isn't PC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2898 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 9:35 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2900 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 9:45 PM Faith has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2900 of 5179 (744927)
12-16-2014 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2899 by Faith
12-16-2014 9:38 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
No one is disputing that. Just not sure what that has to do with the argument for some reasonable gun laws.
But according to your own words you want to outlaw Islam, though the vast majority of the followers of Islam are law abiding citizens. Looking at it rationally, one might be able to conclude that the percentage of law abiding Moslems is higher than the percentage of law abiding gun owners.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2899 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 9:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2901 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 9:49 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 2903 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-16-2014 9:55 PM Theodoric has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2901 of 5179 (744930)
12-16-2014 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2900 by Theodoric
12-16-2014 9:45 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
You don't understand one thing about how Islam works, you are blind to it.
And I told you why I said what I said about law abiding gun owners but you just went on to find something to accuse me of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2900 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 9:45 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2902 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 9:53 PM Faith has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2902 of 5179 (744933)
12-16-2014 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2901 by Faith
12-16-2014 9:49 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
I was pointing out the hypocrisy of your argument.
I know much more about Islam than you. I have read and studied the quran. I have debated with moslems.
Islam is no more a religion of murder than christianity.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2901 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 9:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2905 by GDR, posted 12-16-2014 10:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2903 of 5179 (744936)
12-16-2014 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2900 by Theodoric
12-16-2014 9:45 PM


Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
In this case I must agree the Faith (I think).
Going to close this topic down for a while if the topic focus doesn't return.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2900 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 9:45 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2904 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 10:07 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2904 of 5179 (744938)
12-16-2014 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2903 by Adminnemooseus
12-16-2014 9:55 PM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
Was attempting to point out that her argument that
"The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding"
is specious and hypocritical on her part. She took it as an opportunity to attack Islam.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2903 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-16-2014 9:55 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2906 by Faith, posted 12-17-2014 6:14 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 2907 by Percy, posted 12-17-2014 7:57 AM Theodoric has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2905 of 5179 (744939)
12-16-2014 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2902 by Theodoric
12-16-2014 9:53 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
Theodoric writes:
I know much more about Islam than you. I have read and studied the quran. I have debated with moslems.
Islam is no more a religion of murder than christianity.
I would enjoy reading a debate between you and Faith on this question.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2902 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 9:53 PM Theodoric has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2906 of 5179 (744947)
12-17-2014 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2904 by Theodoric
12-16-2014 10:07 PM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
Since this thread will be closed down if we continue in this vein I'm deprived of the opportunity to answer you, but I'm going to anyway. I already did but as usual you didn't get the point. There is no hypocrisy in denouncing an evil religion but supporting good gun owners, as I already said, pointing out that your PC opinions equate good things with evil things. I've made that point many times on the racism-homophobia thread but also just in the last few posts to you here. PC equates law enforcement with murder, legal punishment by death with murder, good gun owners with bad gun owners who murder people, good religion with evil religion and so on. PC is a pernicious evil ideology that is destroying civilization.
You think you understand Islam because you read all its stuff and debated Muslims. I wonder how you missed their overarching plan to take the world for Allah, create a worldwide caliphate or Islamic State in not just Syria but the world, which they consider to be their highest duty. You have to ignore all the ways they are actually doing this in parts of the world where they can. And how you manage to miss their official strategy of tolerating the infidel and infidel state so long as they don't have the power to overcome them, abiding by their laws as long as they have to, waiting for the time when they can break out and subjugate and kill for Allah. All this can be found in various public statements by various Muslim leaders over the last few decades. Or manage to miss their official strategy of lying to promote their idea of good, which is really evil. You think all cultures are essentially the same, no doubt, so you don't expect to be lied to about such things. May it bite you in the butt and remove some flesh.
No hypocrisy, just your PC induced moral and intellectual failure.
GDR wants a debate. No.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2904 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 10:07 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2908 by herebedragons, posted 12-17-2014 8:26 AM Faith has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 2907 of 5179 (744950)
12-17-2014 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2904 by Theodoric
12-16-2014 10:07 PM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
If I were to rephrase your position but in general terms in my own words I'd note that it's inconsistent to render judgment on all of some groups but not all of others, and then point out that it's senseless to judge entire groups anyway. At least that's what I thought you were saying.
But if anyone was arguing that gun owners as a group are bad I guess I missed it. We don't want to regulate guns because gun owners are bad, because gun owners are not bad. We want to regulate guns for the same reason we regulate most things, for the greater good. Guns are dangerous to everyone in the vicinity, and regulating them reduces that danger.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2904 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2014 10:07 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2909 by Theodoric, posted 12-17-2014 9:01 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2915 by Faith, posted 12-17-2014 7:58 PM Percy has replied

herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(6)
Message 2908 of 5179 (744952)
12-17-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2906 by Faith
12-17-2014 6:14 AM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
good religion with evil religion
Your argument might have a bit more teeth if you yourself didn't espouse such an evil religion. A God who hates most everyone on earth, who creates people to be evil and then punishes them for it, who causes natural disasters and terrorist attacks as judgement that indiscriminately kill both guilty and innocent, who will ultimately destroy everyone he doesn't like and set up his kingdom to rule the entire earth. Now we have a very plain view of exactly the kind of religion you practice... and its not that much different than Islam.
PC equates law enforcement with murder
Putting a man in a choke hold to the point where he dies because he was selling loose cigarettes is "law enforcement?"
legal punishment by death with murder
We all know what would happen if people like you had their way as far as the death penalty goes. You would have the majority of people on this forum (including me) put to death for blasphemy, you would have gays executed, etc, etc. Is this not what the Bible teaches you to do?
There is no hypocrisy in denouncing an evil religion but supporting good gun owners
If you want someone to agree with you that most gun owners are good, honest citizens. Yes, I will agree. But there is a LOT of crazies out there, even a lot of them who on the surface appear to be honest, law-biding citizens. Some who are anxiously waiting and hoping for the day where they can legally blow someone away. I have meet people like that. But yes, most gun owners ARE good, honest citizens. That is not really the problem.
Guns have gotten out of control in this country. Many, many innocent people are dying as a direct result of the accessibility of guns. I know, "Its not guns that kill people, its people who kill people." Its actually our love affair with violence that causes people to be killed. Guns are a reflection, a symptom of that love affair and it never ceases to amaze me that so many Christians, who are supposed to be about "love one another" and "bring hope to the lost and hurting" would be so adamantly opposed to gun control and who so defend police officers, who are charged to serve and protect, that use excessive force in the execution of their "enforcement of the law." This is what people see as hypocritical. Christians should be the first to stand up and protest when human beings are being killed needlessly. After all, we are all made in God's image.
You however, are not hypocritical at all. You views on "politically correctness" reflect exactly the God the you believe in.
What a shame
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2906 by Faith, posted 12-17-2014 6:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2913 by Faith, posted 12-17-2014 3:09 PM herebedragons has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2909 of 5179 (744955)
12-17-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2907 by Percy
12-17-2014 7:57 AM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
ut if anyone was arguing that gun owners as a group are bad I guess I missed it. We don't want to regulate guns because gun owners are bad, because gun owners are not bad. We want to regulate guns for the same reason we regulate most things, for the greater good. Guns are dangerous to everyone in the vicinity, and regulating them reduces that danger.
Yes agreed. No one has argued that all gun owners are bad. Faith is saying guns should not be regulated because the majority of gun owners are good people. The point i was making didn't even need to go to the next step that we regulate guns because guns, in and of themselves, are dangerous. I was simply pointing out the flaw of making decisions solely based on the group of people. As you say
If I were to rephrase your position but in general terms in my own words I'd note that it's inconsistent to render judgment on all of some groups but not all of others, and then point out that it's senseless to judge entire groups anyway.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2907 by Percy, posted 12-17-2014 7:57 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2910 of 5179 (744959)
12-17-2014 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2888 by Faith
12-16-2014 12:50 PM


Re: Yes Re: and another one...
Faith writes:
The vast majority of gun owners in America are responsible law-abiding citizens.
I don't think so. As I've said before, it is not rational to think you can defend yourself with a gun. A gun is not a defensive weapon. The only way to win a gunfight is to shoot first.
To be responsible gun owners, people would have to understand the capability of their guns - and I don't think most of them do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2888 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 12:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2911 by Percy, posted 12-17-2014 11:12 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2912 by NosyNed, posted 12-17-2014 2:11 PM ringo has replied
 Message 2926 by Percy, posted 12-18-2014 8:17 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

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