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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 690 of 2073 (742980)
11-25-2014 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 684 by Colbard
11-25-2014 11:13 PM


Re: Belief in science
That answer is part of the evolution/atheist regime. The other half of America does science as well without imbibing swamp stories.
I was unaware that half of America did science. Where do they publish, the Journal of Imaginary Studies? The Review of Stuff that Colbard Just Made Up? The Bulletin of You're Talking Crap Again, Colbard?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 754 of 2073 (744008)
12-07-2014 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 745 by Colbard
12-07-2014 4:16 AM


Re: Nonsense is the word
You don't know what I know, all you know is your world with its perimeters, everything outside of that is a lie to you. Now that's not the mind of a true thinker or scientist.
I gave the story of the coin dating as a trigger to help the 'scientists' blow their steam off, giving them an opportunity to run me over with a bulldozer full of regular words. Seemed necessary to you didn't it? And why is that?
Is your world so false and fragile that it needs to run down anything that comes near it?Whatever comes out of their mouth is predictable, like the average text book.
Yeah, you ask 'em what 2 + 2 is and they answer "four", rather than more imaginative answers like "five" or "a million and seven", or "a large fish named Simon".
What's worse, if you go around insisting that the real answer is 'I'm a tiny piglet, oink oink oink", they still say that the answer is four. This may be because, as you speculate, their world is "false and fragile", but is more likely because they aren't insane.
The science world, apart from nature itself, is the m o s t b o r i n g place in the universe, the only way they can get any attention is with rocket science or with celebrity scientists, even so the numbers are right down, and it costs billions.
And why is that? Codependent intellectualism. Passing around the hand downs. Boring. Incredibly boring.
Why is science so boring?
If your reason for hating reality is that you find it boring, then you are free to maintain your present extremely tangential relationship to it.
However, the question is what to teach in schools. Now, in the first place not everyone is bored by the same thing. Some people find reality fascinating.
In the second place, education is about more than entertaining people. It has a practical purpose, and this is obviously better served by teaching facts, even dull ones, than amusing fictions.
Finally, there are ethical considerations. If one is teaching something as a fact, it should also be one. A teacher who (for example) claimed to have carbon-dated a coin might amuse the class, especially those of them who know what carbon-dating is, but s/he would also be a dirty liar.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 761 by dwise1, posted 12-07-2014 4:02 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 765 of 2073 (744069)
12-07-2014 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by RAZD
12-07-2014 7:41 PM


Re: age issue remains unanswered, not even tried
Oh c'mon, he's already told us how he carbon-dated a coin. Now you want him to discuss facts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by RAZD, posted 12-07-2014 7:41 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 785 of 2073 (744116)
12-08-2014 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 768 by Colbard
12-08-2014 8:28 AM


Re: How Should We be Teaching Science?
What will you feel and say when your world of conclusions is proven wrong?
Not if, when.
What will you feel and say when you see a pink elephant?
Not gray, pink.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by Colbard, posted 12-08-2014 8:28 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 793 of 2073 (744138)
12-08-2014 12:47 PM


Yeah, I don't often like to say it, but maybe we have a genuine troll on our hands this time, someone who is genuinely stupid and ignorant and socially dysfunctional, but who consoles himself for his defects by convincing himself that he doesn't have these defects, but that instead he intends that he should seem to have these defects, and is doing it as a protest against ... well, as it turns out, the genuinely smart people who aren't assholes.
That's where it all goes wrong for him, of course. The genuinely smart people just mock him for being an idiot with poor social skills, as they would if he wasn't "pretending" to be himself. He is himself.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 805 of 2073 (744233)
12-09-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by Colbard
12-09-2014 8:38 AM


Re: Carbon dating coins
Carbon dating is the holy grail of evolution. It's entire structure rests on that poor brick ...
Can anyone possibly be so ignorant as to believe this?
So why not introduce the topic of dating with a holed story?
Because telling lies is naughty.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by Colbard, posted 12-09-2014 8:38 AM Colbard has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 812 of 2073 (744274)
12-09-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by Colbard
12-09-2014 8:51 AM


Are You A Troll?
Well, let me explain this to you.
Are you a troll? We are hesitating between two possibilities:
(1) You are the most ignorant person we have ever met, drooling out halfwitted nonsense about subjects that you've never studied, and telling obvious lies about subjects you know nothing about. In that case, you have genuine mental problems, but you are not a troll.
(2) You are pretending to be the most ignorant person we have ever met, drooling out halfwitted nonsense about subjects that you've never studied, and telling obvious lies about subjects you know nothing about, and you're doing this deliberately, in order to annoy intelligent and well-informed people with your pretended stupidity. In that case, you have genuine mental problems, namely that you are a troll.
It's hard to tell which mental deficits you are suffering from. Your defects in personality suggest that you are a troll, but then this leaves us again with two possibilities:
(1) You are genuinely socially handicapped, and you are not a troll.
(2) You are genuinely socially handicapped, which is why you have chosen to be a troll.
So, we are again left with two choices:
(1) You are really mentally and socially defective, and we should feel sorry for you.
(2) You are really mentally and socially defective, and you have chosen deliberately to present yourself as being mentally and socially defective ... in which case we should still feel sorry for you, but we probably won't.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 827 of 2073 (744377)
12-10-2014 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 819 by Colbard
12-10-2014 6:51 AM


Re: To the last few replies
The coin story is true ...
No-one carbon-dated your coin. It is false.
The very fact that the argument has turned from the thread subject to the disputes over the two fields of thought, together with mud slinging and proof calling, shows that the opposition to creationism, is unable to focus on the subject at hand.
Yes, you're right. You have chastened us. Obviously the question of which subject, if either, should be taught in schools, has nothing to do with which one, if either, is correct, and you have displayed a complete lack of focus by engaging us in this discussion.
Because you are very stupid, I should explain that that was sarcasm.
You claim that there is no evidence for creationism and so demand it. But I am aware that to a large degree you are not open to that evidence, but only to information that seems to agree with popular sanctions on evolution.
Evolution theory is just a way of looking at things. It's a point of view, and it sees what it does for evidence of itself. just because it is widely accepted, including by intellectuals of high standing, does not mean it is flawless, or even altogether true.
Creationism does not have to find evidence, because everything that exists, is proof of creation, rather than snippets from nature.
Once a person or society has decided to go down a certain track of philosophy which includes denial of the Creator, it is nigh impossible for them to see any evidence of truth outside of their head space. This also happens in false religion and in nearly every challenge the human mind faces.
The only way to prove this point is to have two groups of schools, and universities, one which teaches creationism in the full sense, not half way as many denominations take it, and have the other schools strictly the regular teachings of evolution.
Then the results can be compared in the students, for aptitude, achievements, intuition, practical skills, and every facet of learning including emotional, physical and mental balance.
So, you can't think of any evidence for creationism?
Once a person or society has decided to go down a certain track of philosophy which includes denial of the Creator, it is nigh impossible for them to see any evidence of truth outside of their head space. This also happens in false religion and in nearly every challenge the human mind faces.
But this is obviously garbage, because many people who believe in a Creator --- many of the people arguing with you right now --- also think that creationism is trash. How does your half-baked amateur psychology account for them?
The only way to prove this point is to have two groups of schools, and universities, one which teaches creationism in the full sense, not half way as many denominations take it, and have the other schools strictly the regular teachings of evolution.
We have religious schools and universities. Where are the important scientific results coming out of Bob Jones University?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Colbard, posted 12-10-2014 6:51 AM Colbard has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 828 of 2073 (744378)
12-10-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 820 by Colbard
12-10-2014 7:22 AM


Re: Evidence is in the mind
Two men in an identical situation.
The beautiful and faithful wives, have left the house unoccupied when the husband arrives home.
They have left a love note on the fridge, indicating that she has gone to town for the dry cleaning and won't be back until 8 pm.
There's a warm dinner in the oven and desert in the fridge.
The men come home each to their own identical house.
Husband A is totally delighted, that the house is so well run, and there are signs of her love everywhere, the whole house is a place of love.
Husband B is a weak man, and does not notice anything, and gobbles the food down.
9 pm and she does not arrive. There's a weather storm.
A does not finish his meal, reads the note again, when the phone rings, he picks it up and it is cut. He decides to wait for 15 minutes and then drive to meet her.
B freaks out about the lightning and gets a knot in his stomach, decides to look for an aspirin to settle himself and finds the note on the fridge. The phone rings and he picks up the phone when it goes dead. He notices the house is all tidy, and suspects she has left him for good. And in anger rips the phone out, trashes the kitchen, and burns the note. (the French revolution)
A decides to meet her when the phone rings (1844 AD) she'll be home in two minutes.
B has no phone, and decides that she never loved him, and as far as he is concerned she is as good as dead.
A's wife enters the door and there's total happiness.
B's wife could not contact him by phone, she finds the house trashed and a drunk on the lounge.
Both had the same evidence.
Reality is calling. You ripped out the wires.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 862 of 2073 (744460)
12-11-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 840 by Colbard
12-11-2014 6:45 AM


Re: back to the coin again -- let's put this story to bed.
So if the beta decay is increased somehow while the carbon is in the ground, then we will have the reading for a very old bone.
The earth radiates alpha and beta particles as if it has a surplus, could this process accelerate the decay rate while the object is buried? A rate which is far slower in lab conditions?
Well, three answers.
Firstly, almost as soon as scientists discovered radioactive decay, they set about seeing if the rate varied according to external conditions such as temperature and pressure. You can read about this here.
Secondly, they understand radioactive decay in principle, they have the quantum theory. They know that what you describe shouldn't take place. Of course, we can imagine that they're wrong, but this wouldn't just mean that they were wrong about radiometric dating, it would mean they were wrong about particle physics generally. And they seem quite good at it, they use this knowledge to produce practical results. Science is all one thing, you can't just unpick one thread from that seamless fabric, you have to tear it all apart to get rid of the one bit you don't like.
Third, we can test radiometric dating against objects of a known age --- this was of course the very first thing scientists did after they thought of radiocarbon dating. It would be funny if it works every time we can check it directly, but fails when we can't. (See here and here: the second article discusses dating methods in general, and how they all fit together.)
I still assume it is wrong because I have studied the global flood as a hobby, and it adds up fine.
Well, there's something you could start a thread about --- but it might make more sense yet to read the threads we already have.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by Colbard, posted 12-11-2014 6:45 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 864 of 2073 (744463)
12-11-2014 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 841 by Colbard
12-11-2014 7:04 AM


Re: To the last few replies
I initially came here thinking that there would be a fair trial for creationism, but soon found out I am up against a brick wall.
But you have scarcely argued for creationism. How is it meant to get a fair trial if the counsel for the defense is asleep on the job.
There was no communication, just slapping around whatever I said, so how would anyone respond? Most people just leave.
But the "slapping around" is down to the quality of your arguments. You seem to be more interested in making snide remarks than in raising scientific issues. When you do the latter --- as with your recent question about beta decay --- you will be met with a civil and factual response. When you resort to vacuous rhetoric, you will be met with mockery and derision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Colbard, posted 12-11-2014 7:04 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 866 of 2073 (744465)
12-11-2014 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 845 by Colbard
12-11-2014 7:24 AM


Re: To the last few replies
You are right, it does not help my stand at all. I knew that, but my degradation would have been no different had I produced the evidence which would have been refuted on the basis of preconceived ideas which dominate the thinking and reasoning.
Why would you say that when you've never tried?
What you are saying is that evolution cannot be wrong because C14 dating proves it.
He didn't say that. No-one has ever said that.
That is the current opinion in the science world ...
NO.
I don't know where you're getting this from, but carbon dating is hardly ever used to support any evolutionary idea. If I think of all the evidence I'd adduce if I was writing a book called Why Evolution Is Right, I wouldn't mention a single date produced by carbon dating. You are being wrong about the wrong thing.
Which suggests to me that you have never looked at the evidence for evolution, or you'd know that yourself. You'd have noticed the complete absence of references to carbon dating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by Colbard, posted 12-11-2014 7:24 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 867 of 2073 (744466)
12-11-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 844 by Colbard
12-11-2014 7:16 AM


Re: To the last few replies
I have said from the start that I agree with science and its method of deduction and analysis, but not its conclusions of evolution, and other theories.
But if you agree with their methods of deduction and analysis, why disagree with the conclusions they deduce from the data that they analyse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Colbard, posted 12-11-2014 7:16 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 889 of 2073 (744785)
12-15-2014 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by Colbard
12-15-2014 6:46 AM


Yay
The same goes for the rest of you, sealing your own destinies by what you have sown.
Ooh, good, I like a well-sealed destiny. But be more specific, what exactly do I win for knowing more about science than you? Will there be cake and dancing girls, or just a pat on the back and someone saying "good job"?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 918 of 2073 (745653)
12-25-2014 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 915 by Rodnas
12-25-2014 2:34 PM


Re: A Q of authority
The topic here is about creation/evolution, I offer scientific information about creation, it is rejected a priori by ignoramuses like you (read my books), so the discussion ends here.
You've offered unsupported assertions laced with personal abuse. That's not a discussion, it's inept sermonizing. If you have a shred of a scrap of a scintilla of evidence for your views, start a thread and present it. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time, including your own.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 915 by Rodnas, posted 12-25-2014 2:34 PM Rodnas has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 920 by Rodnas, posted 12-25-2014 3:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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