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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 227 (746106)
01-02-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
01-02-2015 11:54 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
An addiction is a counterfeit "need".

According to my opinion, that is perfectly succinct.

I think its scientifically accurate as well.

But it doesn't fit with the proposed definition that the counterfeit need has to cause some kind of life problem - but I don't agree with that definition anyways.

Nor do I understand why its being pushed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 01-02-2015 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-02-2015 12:17 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 32 of 227 (746108)
01-02-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
01-02-2015 11:59 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Cat's Eye writes:

But it doesn't fit with the proposed definition that the counterfeit need has to cause some kind of life problem - but I don't agree with that definition anyways.


Yeah, I'm leaning away from the "problem" approach myself. An addiction is only a problem if it's a problem but it's still an addiction even if it isn't a problem.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-02-2015 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 01-03-2015 2:25 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11404
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 33 of 227 (746128)
01-03-2015 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
01-02-2015 12:17 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
satan could hypothetically be an addiction. He essentially is a counterfeit need yet is only a problem for some. Personally, I know in my mind that I better stick with real needs and avoid counterfeit ones---if only for my mental health and conscience.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 01-02-2015 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-03-2015 10:35 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 34 of 227 (746139)
01-03-2015 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
01-03-2015 2:25 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

satan could hypothetically be an addiction. He essentially is a counterfeit need yet is only a problem for some.


If he was real, he could be. What about the need to blame somebody besides ourselves? Would that be an addiction too?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 01-03-2015 2:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-03-2015 11:41 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11404
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 35 of 227 (746149)
01-03-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
01-03-2015 10:35 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
ringo writes:

What about the need to blame somebody besides ourselves? Would that be an addiction too?

Religion can be an addiction, I think. Of course I'M NOT addicted!

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 01-03-2015 10:35 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 227 (746154)
01-03-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
01-02-2015 11:48 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
No shit, that's why I challenged your definition. It didn't actually define, it just set up a taughtology.

There is no tautology. There is just a need to define "problem". I did not bother simply because I thought we could agree on what's a problem. But we did discuss example problems like lung cancer when you felt free to tell me that smoking caused you no problems.

As an example of where that was actually done, I point to the definition Phat cited regarding addiction to psychoactive materials.

You sure about that? I think nicotine is psychoactive, and that there is a non-zero amount of intoxication.

No. I am not sure. I don't have an opinion on whether tobacco is addictive. I'm just applying the facts you give me to the definition. Incidentally the definition is not my own. I lifted it from the definition used by psychologists to describe a number of addictions including gambling and alcoholism.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-02-2015 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 227 (746205)
01-04-2015 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
01-02-2015 11:48 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
or two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here".

You've never starved your body of vitamin C. If you do manage to do that you will feel some ill effects. You might even manage to get your mind to understand that the lack of vitamin C is the cause.

But if the vitamin example C bothers you, just substitute oxygen.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-02-2015 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2015 10:43 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11404
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 38 of 227 (746271)
01-05-2015 8:58 AM


Day 25
This is only my 25th day of full sobriety from my addiction. I can report that I already feel a resensitivity to my feelings, as I find that I laugh and cry easier than before. Subjectively I can confirm the fact that my addiction served to numb and/or minimize pain and awareness.

The experts claim that a "flood of feelings" won't appear evident until after 180 days of sobriety has passed so I await that event as I move forward one day at a time.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
reality is not something you take a vote on.~jar


  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 227 (746285)
01-05-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
01-04-2015 2:30 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
But if the vitamin example C bothers you, just substitute oxygen.

Both of those things are required to survive, silly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 01-04-2015 2:30 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2015 1:05 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 227 (746318)
01-05-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
01-05-2015 10:43 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Both of those things are required to survive, silly.

Is that excluded using your definition?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2015 10:43 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2015 2:17 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 227 (746325)
01-05-2015 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by NoNukes
01-05-2015 1:05 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Is that excluded using your definition?

Uh, yeah:

quote:
Are you addicted to vitamin C?

Nope.

For one, I need vitamin C to survive.

For two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here".

On the other hand, I do not need nicotine nor caffiene to survive but on many occasions my body has told me to get some so it'll stop feeling like shit.

So I'm addicted to both of those things but not vitamin C.


and:

quote:
What's wrong with you? Are you some kind of oxygen addict?

No, I need oxygen to survive. Addictions are for things that you don't need to live, but you think you need them anyway.

Your brain tricks your body into thinking that it needs the chemical or behavior to survive, but it really doesn't.


You replied to that message... twice.

In Message 36, you wrote:

quote:
I lifted it from the definition used by psychologists to describe a number of addictions including gambling and alcoholism.

A number of addictions, but not all of them. And those are a little different. I've been mainly focusing on chemical addictions. The above is more for behavior addictions, and with those it does make sense to include problem-causing as part of the definition.

With gambling, there's no chemical you are intaking that you can become addicted to. And even with alcoholism its hard to determine if the person really is addicted to the chemical, or if they just really like to party.

Without a particular "drug" to point the finger at, we have to define the addiction with when the behavior becomes a problem.

And I don't have a problem with that. But I do have a problem with limiting the term 'addiction' to only those things that cause problems, like you originally did:

What I think works is an operational definition. If you have a habit that is causing problems in your life, then it is an addiction.

That doesn't work as an operational definition, in general, because you can be addicted to specific chemicals even though they don't cause problems in your life.

Defining it your way is more for behavioral addictions, rather than chemical ones. It simply doesn't cover all the bases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2015 1:05 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 05-19-2015 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11404
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 42 of 227 (757714)
05-12-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
12-12-2014 11:26 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Ringo writes:

Q: Do you suffer from addiction?
A: No. I enjoy it.

I have recently been studying the philosophy of the group known as Rational Recovery. They make a lot of sense!

RR writes:

In effect, you have two separate "brains" within your head. One is primitive, similar to the brain of a dog or a horse. This we call the midbrain. It is basically the brain of a beast, and its only purpose is to survive. The "beast brain" generates survival appetites that drive the rest of the body toward what it demands, such as oxygen, food, sex, and fluids.

Thus, we have met the "enemy" and he is us! Our primitive mind will never see any problem with any sort of self indulgence.
But another brain sits on top of the beast brain, the cerebral cortex. This "new brain," or neocortex, allows human beings to be conscious, to think, to have language, and to solve problems. Your neocortex is "you," and you can override any appetite, even for oxygen.
Thus...Rational Recovery uses logic and an acknowledgement towards personal responsibility found only in our higher brain.
They have a system known as AVRT. (Addictive Voice Recognition Therapy) Basically, however...they agree with you in that
Addiction is a voluntary behavior (such as drinking alcohol or using drugs) that persists against your own own better judgment. Thus, addiction cannot be “diagnosed” or attributed to you by others, including physicians. It is solely up to you to decide if your drinking threatens or harms others and yourself. You must decide now whether continuing your addictive pleasures is worth the destruction that will likely result. In other words, you are free to choose between drinking and not drinking — between the high life and family life, between right and wrong.

If you believe there is nothing wrong with your own drinking/using, then you are free to continue, provided you are willing to accept the likely consequences.

The point is that we are responsible for our addictions and bad habits and we also have the power within us to cease any addiction...provided we are honest with ourselves and ready.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 12-12-2014 11:26 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11404
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 43 of 227 (758096)
05-19-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
01-05-2015 2:17 PM


Rational Recovery Philosophy Examined
Cat Sci writes:

For one, I need vitamin C to survive.

For two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here".

On the other hand, I do not need nicotine nor caffeine to survive but on many occasions my body has told me to get some so it'll stop feeling like shit.

This observation further supports the RR hypothesis. An addiction by definition is actively courted and desired by our primitive brain.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2015 2:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-29-2015 2:52 PM Phat has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 227 (758609)
05-29-2015 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
05-19-2015 12:18 PM


Re: Rational Recovery Philosophy Examined
Cat Sci writes:

For one, I need vitamin C to survive.
For two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here".

On the other hand, I do not need nicotine nor caffeine to survive but on many occasions my body has told me to get some so it'll stop feeling like shit.

This observation further supports the RR hypothesis. An addiction by definition is actively courted and desired by our primitive brain.

Yeah, the RR has a waaay better approach than that "powerlessness" crap that 12-step uses.

I'm glad you found something better. How's it coming along?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 05-19-2015 12:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 05-29-2015 6:07 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 5:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 9:30 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11404
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 45 of 227 (758621)
05-29-2015 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
05-29-2015 2:52 PM


Re: Rational Recovery Philosophy Examined
Cat Sci writes:

I'm glad you found something better. How's it coming along?

Ive had ups and downs. No real track record of sobriety longer than 60-70 day runs. I am learning how to recognize the addictive voice....its amazing what one can talk themselves into...and also how primitive, stupid, and selfish the inner logic is.

As of this writing, I have about a solid month under my belt, and am again trying to go beyond the 60-72 day period that seems to be my limit so far.

Its not the length of sobriety so much as it is the total number of days of sobriety overall versus the total number of relapsing(irresponsible,rebellious) days of addiction hat make up the big picture.

Being honest with myself, I find that I am addicted to action and chaos versus responsibility and order.

It also didn't help that during my last relapse I won $5000.00.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-29-2015 2:52 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ringo, posted 05-30-2015 12:13 PM Phat has responded

  
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