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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(9)
Message 8 of 224 (673434)
09-19-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


Phat writes:
I personally believe that we humans need a Creator/mentor all wise guide that encourages and inspires humanity to fulfill our best aspirations.
Didn't Timothy Leary say something similar about LSD?
Addicts "need" their drug. They won't die without it but they might wish they were dead.
Phat writes:
Perhaps our greatest strength is our personal and societal responsibility for our own destiny, but I believe that we are flawed in the ability to achieve this goal.
I agree completely. I fully expect that some day we will fail to meet the challenge and become extinct. It's happened to more successful species than ours.
The problem with "needing" some Higher Power to solve our problems for us is that we've never found one that will do it reliably. Your favourite is actually promising to wipe us out some day. I see that as a problem rather than a solution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-19-2012 2:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 14 of 224 (673471)
09-19-2012 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
09-19-2012 2:56 PM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:
This only poses a problem for those who refuse to believe. Even those who can't believe will eventually be given enough evidence to cast a free vote aye or nay.
So you're saying that we only "need" God eventually, when He comes to kill everybody who doesn't accept Him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-19-2012 2:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 09-19-2012 5:43 PM ringo has replied
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 01-10-2015 7:24 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 18 of 224 (673505)
09-19-2012 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
09-19-2012 5:43 PM


Re: God, by definition
GDR writes:
The trouble is Ringo that the picture that you present for Christianity is a strawman.
I'm not presenting the picture. I'm asking Phat if he is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 09-19-2012 5:43 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 09-19-2012 10:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 24 of 224 (673579)
09-20-2012 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
09-19-2012 10:45 PM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:
I maintain that in order to need God, God would have to be:
Potentially Interactive with humanity
Possessive of a level of wisdom and insight that no human has yet attained.
Caring of us...not vindictive or angry so as to wipe us out or...even worse...ignore us.
You seem to be describing a god that would be somewhat useful rather than one that's "necessary". Sure, it would be nice to have a friend who always answers the phone and drops everything to come over and help me do things that I can't do by myself.
But nobody seems to be claiming that there is a god lke that. The gods that are for sale seem to answer when they feel like it and help when they feel like it. I already have friends like that, so why do I need another one?
How can I "need" a god that even theists don't claim exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 09-19-2012 10:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 47 of 224 (674079)
09-26-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by GDR
09-26-2012 2:18 AM


Re: Which God to Choose...
GDR writes:
All of us, atheist and theist alike have a dream of leaving their mark on this world that endures past death. It might be kids, a beautiful painting or piece of music, a scientific breakthrough, a medical cure or even improving the lot of the less fortunate. I know that you will disagree but if we are the result of just a mindless collection of particles then the fact that we feel that way makes very little sense to me.
But the particles themselves will endure past death.
quote:
We are stardust.
We are golden.
And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.
-- Joni Mitchell


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 09-26-2012 2:18 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 09-26-2012 1:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 50 of 224 (674096)
09-26-2012 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
09-26-2012 1:57 PM


Re: Which God to Choose...
GDR writes:
It seems reasonable to conclude that we are more than just the particles that make up our bodies.
I come to the opposite conclusion, that we can aspire to be particles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 09-26-2012 1:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by GDR, posted 09-26-2012 3:36 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 224 (715514)
01-06-2014 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
01-03-2014 2:33 PM


Re: Long and Preachy 2.0
Phat writes:
And of course, believing in God would also assume that we need God.
So believing in France assumes that we need France?
Phat writes:
The only thing that scares me about what you believe has to do with the scripture that suggests that we who feel self sufficient are blind since we don't acknowledge our blindness..(our need.)
Remember the beam in the eye?
quote:
Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
At least some of the followers are blind too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 01-03-2014 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 224 (725688)
04-30-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Diomedes
04-29-2014 3:41 PM


Re: The Power of Christ
Diomedes writes:
So happiness in a certain sense is more correlated with that of conformity than anything else.
Maybe. It makes sense that people feel good marching with the parade but what if there is no parade? Maybe they just feel good not having to march.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Diomedes, posted 04-29-2014 3:41 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 224 (726080)
05-06-2014 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by riVeRraT
05-05-2014 9:11 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
riVeRraT writes:
We need hope, we need understanding, we need Love, and a bunch of other human nessessitys.... People who don't believe in a god, still seek those things.
And find them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by riVeRraT, posted 05-05-2014 9:11 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 224 (746865)
01-10-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
01-10-2015 7:24 AM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:
According to NT Theology, God would not be the One doing the wiping. Humans in and of themselves are quite capable of wiping themselves out of existence.
That may be what your theology says but it is definitely not what the New Testament says. You're the one taking the Bible out of context.
Phat writes:
The God whom I believe in has a vested interest in keeping as many of us alive as possible.
Then He could do so very easily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 01-10-2015 7:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 01-11-2015 1:51 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 224 (747003)
01-11-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
01-11-2015 1:51 AM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:
the only people who get wiped out in the NT are the ones who follow the Beast.
Come on. How many times do we have to go through this?
quote:
Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
There's nothing about following any "Beast" and there's nothing about believing in any resurrection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 01-11-2015 1:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 01-11-2015 4:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 224 (747084)
01-12-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
01-11-2015 4:06 PM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:
Yes, but according to that verse those people wipe themselves out. God does not wipe them out.
Nonsense. God wipes them out because they don't do what he wants them to do.
Phat writes:
Be careful what you do for you are fully responsible for the outcome.
We are responsible for the natural consequences. If you knowingly drop a hammer on your foot you're responsible for the damage. But if God slaps you upside the head for dropping your hammer, that isn't a natural consequence and you aren't responsible. He is.
Do you really want to argue that we "need" God to add unnecessarily to our woes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 01-11-2015 4:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 01-13-2015 2:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 141 of 224 (747218)
01-13-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
01-13-2015 2:44 AM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:
If God slaps you--yes He is responsible.
Okay, let's try this again:
quote:
Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Do you picture people asking, "Which way to the everlasting punishment?" Do we "need" God to give us directions? Maybe you should call Disney and suggest that they open an everlasting punishment ride.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 01-13-2015 2:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by vimesey, posted 01-13-2015 12:17 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 224 (747417)
01-15-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
01-15-2015 6:38 AM


Re: the Plane, the Plane
Phat writes:
To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God.
You know that isn't true. Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 6:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 224 (747571)
01-16-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
01-15-2015 1:51 PM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:
But believers do have a monopoly(by default and by world view) on God. We believe that life itself is made possible only by and through God. The monopoly, in my mind, is God Himself.
What are you talking about?
In Message 143 you said, "To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God," and in Message 145 I replied, "Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that."
Your only response seems to be word salad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 1:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 5:50 PM ringo has replied

  
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