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Author Topic:   Deflation-gate
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 466 (748430)
01-25-2015 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
01-25-2015 8:51 PM


Re: Science Takes the Stage
Why the Colts player thought the ball was underinflated is yet another mystery.
I meant to comment on this one earlier. The Colt linebacker who intercepted a Brady pass in the first half says he did not detect anything wrong with the ball. Apparently someone he gave the ball to on the sidelines did notice.
And, the ball almost certainly was under inflated. I think the amount of deflation in question would be detectable. I have not much experience with footballs, but I can tell you that when I played a lot of basketball, I could easily detect small amounts (much less than 1 pound) of under inflation simply by handling the ball for a few moments.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 01-25-2015 8:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 01-26-2015 7:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 17 of 466 (748449)
01-26-2015 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by NoNukes
01-25-2015 9:44 PM


Re: Science Begins Receiving Mainstream Attention
Gee, thanks for reading that message. I started out just to give a short update on Bellichick's press conference and lost control.
In any event, an atmospheric (barometric) excursion of more than 1/4 psi or so would be extremely unlikely. So I think only the temperature explanations are worth considering.
That's what I thought, too, that atmospheric changes were unlikely to have played a role, but after I wrote that message I came across an article that not only mentioned this possibility (see the first article cited in my Message 14), but also reported how someone had actually checked the local barometric pressure 2 hours before game time and at halftime and discovered that it had dropped about .1 psi. This would have caused the footballs' pressure to measure greater than the original inflation pressure by .1 psi.
And say the room where the footballs were originally inflated had an air outlet and no return vent. This would increase the air pressure in the room and cause the football to measure at a higher pressure on the field. Or say the room had no air outlet and only a return vent (I know, doesn't make sense, but walls are moved easily, duct work not so much). This would decrease the air pressure in the room and cause the football to measure at a lower pressure on the field.
When would this letting air out have legally happened?
Early reports claimed teams inflated their own balls, but it turns out they turn the balls over to the refs and tell them what pressure they want. The refs then fill the balls to that pressure. All I was attempting to say was that if the footballs became warm either by handling or by being next to the boiler room or the laundry room, and if they were delivered in warm condition to the refs who immediately inflated them, then when they returned to room temperature they would be underinflated, and that's before they even reach the field.
If it is true that the Colts balls were up to par, and that the re-testing was conducted at room temperature,...
I've seen no explicit mention of where the testing took place, but I assume it was done on the field. To retest indoors would have required taking the balls indoors and waiting at least a half hour for them to warm up. Half-time is only 20 minutes at most.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2015 9:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 12:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 18 of 466 (748450)
01-26-2015 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
01-25-2015 10:09 PM


Re: Science Takes the Stage
NoNukes writes:
And, the ball almost certainly was under inflated. I think the amount of deflation in question would be detectable. I have not much experience with footballs, but I can tell you that when I played a lot of basketball, I could easily detect small amounts (much less than 1 pound) of under inflation simply by handling the ball for a few moments.
By "handling the ball", do you mean the same kind of handling as for a football? Or do you mean by bouncing it, which you can't do with a football?
When I ran my own inflation experiment I couldn't tell the difference in pressure by handling the football, and Bellichick said the trials they ran picking out underinflated footballs revealed that it wasn't possible until the difference rose to 2 psi, and even then detecting it was pretty spotty.
I meant to comment on this one earlier. The Colt linebacker who intercepted a Brady pass in the first half says he did not detect anything wrong with the ball. Apparently someone he gave the ball to on the sidelines did notice.
Maybe someone with a gauge in his pocket?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 01-25-2015 10:09 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 01-26-2015 11:27 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 12:26 PM Percy has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 19 of 466 (748462)
01-26-2015 10:55 AM


I think this will introduce a plethora of S.O.P.s in regards to game balls.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 20 of 466 (748472)
01-26-2015 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
01-26-2015 7:53 AM


Re: Science Takes the Stage
Or do you mean by bouncing it, which you can't do with a football?
Sure you can ... once.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 01-26-2015 7:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 21 of 466 (748534)
01-26-2015 3:39 PM


Bill Nye Gets it Wrong
In response to Bellichick's press conference Bill Nye said:
Rubbing the football, I don't think you can change the pressure. To really change the pressure you need one of these - the inflation needle.
He's wrong, of course. First, there's friction. Working up the football to rough up the surface to make it easier to grip will warm it up.
And Nye is wrong for another reason. The body is warmer than the football, and heat always flows from hot to cold. It never flows in the reverse direction, and in the presence of a heat gradient it doesn't stay put.
I recently replaced my old thermostats, and the new ones are much more sensitive. If you stand in front of them for a half minute or so, the temperature reading will increase. Body heat does have an impact. So if someone holds a football close to the body for for five minutes while rubbing it up then it will warm up the football.
These two effects, friction and increasing temperature, are enough to have a measurable effect. All Nye did was make an armchair declaration that Bellichick was wrong, but Bellichick's the one who performed some experimentation, and he *did* measure a pressure increase resulting from handling the footballs.
Nye does say, "To really change the pressure...", which is perhaps how he's saying that rubbing the football will only have some small effect, which is correct, but if that's what he meant then that's the only correct thing he said. I read a couple more mainstream press articles about deflation-gate today, and they definitely interpreted Bill Nye's statement as saying that Belichick has his science wrong.
But Bellichick does not have his science wrong. Despite what Bil Nye said, heat does flow from hot to cold, friction does cause heat, and pressure does drop with temperature. Even more impressive, Bellichick apparently didn't know or at least wasn't sure of these little facts of science beforehand but just discovered or verified them as he went along. All in all, it was a very nifty job of science experimentation. Bill Nye could learn something.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 12:51 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 22 of 466 (748600)
01-27-2015 9:38 AM


It Just Doesn't Stop
There's been yet another leak from the NFL. According to Fox Sports, surveillance cameras captured the locker room attendant who carried the balls from the referees room to the field stopping off in a bathroom for 90 seconds. This is apparently enough to convict the Patriots in some peoples' minds. As one late night sports talk show host put it (paraphrasing), "90 seconds may not seem like much time, but you can be sure this isn't the first time they've done this, he has his act down pat, and 90 seconds was plenty of time." (I can hear Tom Brady thinking, "He stopped off in a bathroom? Hey, I have to throw these things!")
Robert Kraft, owner of the Patriots, gave an impassioned four minute speech upon arrival in Phoenix yesterday. He gave his coach and his quarterback solid votes of confidence, and he expressed strong disappointment with the way the NFL was steadily leaking partial information and inuendo in a way causing the issue to remain under media scrutiny and be tried in the court of public opinion with an absence of hard evidence and an abundance of misinformation.
Bellichick's public manner invites suspicion, but Brady doesn't deserve this. Troy Aikman and Mark Brunnell (former NFL quarterbooks) have both gone on record as not believing Brady. Even if they understand but reject the possibility that temperature could have significantly affected pressure and sincerely believe it could only have occurred through tampering, how can they ignore that anyone with access could have tampered with the footballs? I guess they can ignore what evidence eventually comes to light and just say, "Hey, Brady must have known." It's possible this will follow Brady around forever, regardless of the evidence. Nice work, NFL.
Kraft is possibly livid at Goodell. Kraft is the most powerful NFL owner, and if in the end it turns out the Patriots did nothing wrong then Goodell will likely be gone within a year or two.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 12:33 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 466 (748616)
01-27-2015 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
01-26-2015 7:53 AM


Re: Science Takes the Stage
By "handling the ball", do you mean the same kind of handling as for a football? Or do you mean by bouncing it, which you can't do with a football?
Squeezing it between my hands, and attempting to 'palm' a basketball with each of my left and right hand would be enough to detect under inflation and over inflation of a standard size and weight men's basketball. Dribbling the ball would be very revealing of course, but not necessary.
And yes you can bounce a football in a way that would help reveal under pressure. You cannot dribble a football down the hard wood, but a single bounce on a known surface would probably be revealing.
I would be complete surprised if a professional football player who handles the ball frequently was not even better at detecting inflation with a football that I am with a basketball. Tom Brady is said to have relatively small hands, and has said that he has a preference for having the football inflated to the low end of the range, while Aaron Rodgers, who has larger hands, has expressed a preference for footballs inflated to the upper end of the range. I suspect that each of these guys gets what he wants on game day.
Bellichick said the trials they ran picking out underinflated footballs
He also does not play quarterback. Please describe those trials.
Maybe someone with a gauge in his pocket?
Possibly. But perhaps that person had some reason to suspect under-inflation.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 01-26-2015 7:53 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 2:10 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 466 (748617)
01-27-2015 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Percy
01-27-2015 9:38 AM


Re: It Just Doesn't Stop
but Brady doesn't deserve this. Troy Aikman and Mark Brunnell (former NFL quarterbooks) have both gone on record as not believing Brady.
To be frank, I think the whole thing is a bit silly. I've seen an article in the press that suggests that one team has their balls 'customized' for their quarterback so that they get the desired 'feel' with normal inflation. Apparently that is completely legal to do.
That said, why are Aikman and Brunnel not credible to you? If there was meddling, who would be foolish enough not to have that meddling cater to Brady's preference?
Some of the stories about the testing would seem to rule out changes in temperature being an issue, but who knows if those stories are accurate?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 9:38 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 2:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 466 (748619)
01-27-2015 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
01-26-2015 7:46 AM


Re: Science Begins Receiving Mainstream Attention
and if they were delivered in warm condition to the refs who immediately inflated them, then when they returned to room temperature they would be underinflated, and that's before they even reach the field.
The temperature of the air in the ball is what determines the pressure/volume and not the skin temperature of the ball, which might be something different at least during filling. Your explanation should be about how hot air got put into the ball.
And say the room where the footballs were originally inflated had an air outlet and no return vent.
Seriously, Percy? You sound like someone who wants this pressure idea to work. So what happened to the 12 balls that were not under inflated?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 01-26-2015 7:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 2:57 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 466 (748621)
01-27-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
01-26-2015 3:39 PM


Re: Bill Nye Gets it Wrong
So if someone holds a football close to the body for for five minutes while rubbing it up then it will warm up the football.
A football is made of insulating material of unknown heat capacity. How long after you tucked the ball under your jacket would it take to see a significant pressure change. If you kept the ball against your skin for five minutes and then put it back on the table, how high would the pressure get?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 01-26-2015 3:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 3:08 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 27 of 466 (748622)
01-27-2015 12:54 PM


Wilson, The Football company disagrees
According to representatives from Wilson, the company responsible for all of the footballs used in the NFL, Belichick's explanation is BS and doesn't factor in the bladders that each football contains, which do not let air escape them unless there is a defect in the bladder.
Source: Belichick full of hot air
Jim Jenkins, Wilson Representative writes:
different environments might cause the PSI inside the ball to change,but "maybe in a year or two." To cause the pressure to change more quickly, Jenkins suggested a ball would have to be placed in a freezer, then thawed.
So, who do you think would have run more experiments on the air contained within footballs, Belichick with his experiments he only ran recently, or the company that has made the footballs for the NFL for the past 70 years?
Another scientist has come out stating that Belichick's experiments are not correct also, a man named Neil DeGrasse Tyson.
NdGT writes:
For the Patriots to blame a change in temperature for 15% lower-pressures, requires balls to be inflated with 125-degree air.
Source
So, scientists don't appear to be agreeing on whether or not this much change can occur from temperature differential. I'd like to see one of them actually run the calculations, which it appears Neil may have done, especially returning a specific initial temperature, but sadly Twitter doesn't allow room for equations in its 155 character limit. I'll see if I can find his calculation somewhere.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 4:02 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 28 of 466 (748627)
01-27-2015 1:26 PM


Wilson Co., Tyson, Nye, others should put up a similar video showing that the temperature cannot change the pressure in a football, bladder and all.
Pathfinder video

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 29 of 466 (748628)
01-27-2015 1:26 PM


So, in addition to Neil DeGrasse Tyson, there are also scientists coming out in support of Belichick's answer to the problem. While these scientists are all employed in the Boston area, that is not a guarantee of bias, just like Bill Nye being from Seattle is a guarantee of his bias in saying Belichick is wrong. According to these scientists:
Felice Freyer writes:
Mahadevan estimated that a drop from 80 degrees to 53 degrees would cause the pressure to fall from 12.5 to 11.9 pounds per square inch.
Not quite the 2 pounds per square inch, but he also used the ideal gas-law equation which does miss some tiny real world factors that could affect the outcome.
Source
Also, there is some complaints I have found about Neil DeGrasse Tyson's calculations, claiming he was confusing gauge pressure and absolute pressure. However, he still returns an answer that the air used to fill the balls must be around 90 degrees to get the requisite 2 lbs drop in pressure. Rather, if only temperature and rubbing the balls down, there would have been an observed pressure decrease of 1.2 lbs, still shy of the required 2lbs.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson Bungles Science on Deflategate
Some Thoughts on Deflate-Gate, showing his work too!
So, while they deny NdGT's answer, they do agree that the ideal gas law is not quite enough to explain the discrepancy. Also, if the balls were tested inside, in the same location they were initially tested, they would be heating up again being inside and regain the pressure they originally had, with the exception of if they lost some air molecules (which Wilson said would require defective bladders on 11 out of 12).

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 4:13 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 30 of 466 (748629)
01-27-2015 1:33 PM


I get the impression that Wilson Co. thinks everyone is talking about air escaping from the ball not a temperature-induced pressure change. I gotta tell ya, a lot of bright people are bungling this thing.

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 2:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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