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Author Topic:   Deflation-gate
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 46 of 466 (748648)
01-27-2015 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
01-27-2015 2:26 PM


Re: Science Takes the Stage
NoNukes writes:
Perhaps Bellichick is unable to tell the difference.
Didn't watch the video, huh.
It was Bellichick's quarterbacks, not Bellichick, that he described as not being able to detect underflated footballs at 1 psi difference, and being hit or miss at 2 psi difference. That would be Tom Brady, Jimmy Garoppolo, Garrett Gilbert from the practice squad, and possibly Julian Edelman, a converted college quarterback who's now a receiver.
But given my own experience, I suspect that only more detail, and not simple denials from Bellichick are going to be required. At least for me anyway.
I agree that actual facts would be very welcome, but I disagree strongly with the characterization of Bellichick's objections as "simple denials." Simple denial is what Faith does. Bellichick actually ran experiments and made measurements.
You seem to be mocking me, Percy.
Sorry, but it seemed like typical locker room boasting. You're not the only athlete out there with experience trying to figure out if a ball has proper pressure. In my own experience bouncing it is the only reliable way. Same thing happens in music. Tons of people have perfect pitch until you start playing notes on a piano.
--Percy

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 466 (748649)
01-27-2015 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Percy
01-27-2015 2:49 PM


Re: It Just Doesn't Stop
I don't think Aikman is privy to any special knowledge. He doesn't know the balls were deflated, and if they were, he doesn't know Brady was involved.
I doubt that Aikman know how the Patriots do things.
But I believe that Aikman might well knows something about the relationship between the team's quarterback, and whoever it is that is responsible for inflating the balls to a pressure between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds.
Given PV=nRT, how could temperature fail to be a factor? There is a lot being written out there that is self-evidently very ignorant of the ideal gas law.
I've explained that at least twice Percy. Regardless of the temperature on the field, we can compare the pressure in the balls when they reach equilibrium at room temperature. Or we can compare them at the temperatures on the field when the referee's checked them.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 2:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 5:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 48 of 466 (748650)
01-27-2015 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NoNukes
01-27-2015 2:37 PM


Re: Science Takes the Stage
We cross-posted on this issue. I already addressed the concerns you mentioned in Message 38.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 49 of 466 (748651)
01-27-2015 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by herebedragons
01-27-2015 4:31 PM


herebedragons writes:
Consider that its not the temperature of the ROOM where the balls were filled, but the temperature of the AIR that went INTO the balls that would need to be 85 or 90 deg. It is not unusual that an air compressor would heat the air as it compresses it.
The footballs aren't being inflated from scratch. They're already inflated to somewhere around 13 psi when delivered to the refs. The pressure will only require slight adjustments requiring a slight pump or release.
I don't know, this is one of the strangest "scandals" I have ever heard of. What puzzles me is why does the NFL not supply balls or at least have an official who is responsible to inflate them?
The football surfaces of each team's 12 footballs are prepared by the respective teams, then delivered to the refs who inflate the footballs to the pressure requested by each team, somewhere between 12.5 and 13.5 psi. Each team plays only with its own footballs. Kicking balls are provided by the league and are the same for each team.
Until around 2006 or so the league did provide all the balls, but the NFL finally responded to quarterback, running back and receiver complaints that unprepped footballs were difficult to throw, catch and carry, so they instituted the current system.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 50 of 466 (748652)
01-27-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
01-27-2015 4:36 PM


Re: It Just Doesn't Stop
NoNukes writes:
But I believe that Aikman might well knows something about the relationship between the team's quarterback, and whoever it is that is responsible for inflating the balls to a pressure between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds.
The refs do the inflating.
I've explained that at least twice Percy. Regardless of the temperature on the field, we can compare the pressure in the balls when they reach equilibrium at room temperature. Or we can compare them at the temperatures on the field when the referee's checked them.
I addressed this possibility back in Message 17. I don't believe they removed the balls from the field and took them inside (the pressure adjustments take place inside) where they waited for them to warm up to room temperature. Half time is only 20 minutes.
But if they did take them inside and let them warm up before measuring them and they measured significantly below 12.5 psi then that seems conclusive to me. That could only happen if the refs misinflated them (seems very unlikely unless there's a defective gauge) or someone let air out of the balls.
The 12 footballs in question exist somewhere. If someone were to heat them to 85 degrees and check their pressures and they came out around 12.5 psi (maybe a little less in case there's leakage) it would mean it is very unlikely that there was ever any tampering, and if they came in significantly below then it's very likely there was tampering.
This is something the NFL could do right now within the hour. Then they could come out and definitively state, "Yes, there was tampering," or "No, there was no tampering," and if there was tampering then all that remains is figuring out who's responsible. There is no need to keep the Patriots and Kraft and Bellicheck and Brady hanging out to dry as tidal waves of public and media accusations of cheating and lying mount. No one should have to endure this.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 4:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 7:21 PM Percy has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 51 of 466 (748653)
01-27-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Percy
01-27-2015 4:48 PM


I'm sorry, I looked back through the thread and saw that you had posted this information back in Message 32.
Percy writes:
But if ball pressure is largely inconsequential, which it probably is, then this is far too much ado about nothing. But reputations are being trashed with no evidence (so far), and that's not right.
I am with you on this. Much ado about nothing and declaring them "cheaters" without any evidence that they did anything wrong.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 52 of 466 (748655)
01-27-2015 5:12 PM


Was the same pressure gauge used for all the tests? Was the gauge calibrated somehow? What is the precision (range variation) of the gauge? What is the resolution of the gauge; 0.1psi, 0.5psi?
Personally I think the whole issue is silly. Football and the super bowl are some of the least important events in the history of humanity.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 53 of 466 (748660)
01-27-2015 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tanypteryx
01-27-2015 5:12 PM


Football and the super bowl are some of the least important events in the history of humanity.
Hush yo mouth, Damselfly boy.
Sport is essential to all cultures and football, the real American kind not that fakey kind where no one wants to score and you can't hit no one at all, is the finest most important sport in the entire history of humanity!
Those who are blind to the divine rituals enacted upon the sacred gridiron do not understand humanity, go out of their way to step on ants and put ketchup on their baked ribeye steak!

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 466 (748661)
01-27-2015 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by herebedragons
01-27-2015 4:31 PM


I don't know, this is one of the strangest "scandals" I have ever heard of. What puzzles me is why does the NFL not supply balls or at least have an official who is responsible to inflate them?
Because some amount of 'messin' with the ball is allowed. I don't see any problem with the balls being scuffed up a bit. I used to hate playing with brand new basketballs because they are general too slick. It should be enough for the referee to check the pressure, but at some point control is turned over to the teams.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 466 (748662)
01-27-2015 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
01-27-2015 5:04 PM


Re: It Just Doesn't Stop
I don't believe they removed the balls from the field and took them inside
That's fine Percy. You don't believe that they removed the balls from the field. I am reserving judgment until I hear what tests were conducted.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 5:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 01-28-2015 6:16 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 466 (748664)
01-27-2015 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by AZPaul3
01-27-2015 3:42 PM


Bladder or not, pig skin or not, a football is not made to be insulating.
It does not matter what the intent was. The skin of the ball does not determine the pressure of the air inside. And both the skin and the bladder are made of materials that do not conduct heat very well.
What this means is that Belichick's explanation is viable. Note, I did not say honest or correct, just viable.
Viable absent some actual calculations involving the temps and pressures actually involved, yes.
To be clear, I am not arguing about whether temperature affects the pressure in the ball. I'm suggesting that some of the scenarios postulated here that have to do with inflating the footballs when they were cold are nonsense.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by AZPaul3, posted 01-27-2015 3:42 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 466 (748665)
01-27-2015 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Percy
01-27-2015 4:02 PM


Re: Wilson, The Football company disagrees
I went through the calculations and Tyson is correct. If you plug the figures into the natural gas law, then in order for the gas at a temperature of 45 degrees to be 15% below it's original pressure of 13 psi, given constant volume the original temperature would have to been 125 degrees (all values approximate), 80 degrees higher.
That strikes me as a bit non-intuitively high. You used absolute temperatures (Rankine scale) of course. Assuming room temp of 70 degrees or about 530 on the Rankine scale we'd expect the pressure to exhibit approximately the same percentage change as the temperature. So to get a 2 parts in 28 psia decrease. Sounds like something on the order of a 30-40 degree change in temperature. I recommend a math recheck.
One possibility is that air is not an ideal gas. The ideal gas law postulates a monatomic gas, but air is made up of molecules of different gases like O2, N2 and CO2
Not much chance of that being an issue. CO2 is the most problematic, but that ought to be no more than 1% of the air. Air is pretty close to an ideal gas over the puny temperature and pressure ranges involved here.
My problem with the data is that a temperature change that drops a ball outside of the spec by 2 pounds ought to even balls inflated near the top of the range out of spec. Yet no problem is observed with any Colt ball, and with some of the Patriots footballs. The explanation cannot simply be the temperature excursion.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 01-27-2015 4:02 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 01-28-2015 6:38 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 58 of 466 (748681)
01-28-2015 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
01-27-2015 7:21 PM


Re: It Just Doesn't Stop
NoNukes writes:
I am reserving judgment until I hear what tests were conducted.
Yes, exactly right. My complaint is about those rushing to judgment, not those reserving judgment.
I hope I never gave the impression that I was arguing that the Patriots must be innocent. Given the current lack of evidence it isn't possible to either exonerate or convict. I've merely been calling attention to natural explanations that are being ignored in the national sports press's rush to judgment, which is apparently even more ignorant of science than I would have guessed.
The NFL's investigation is on-going, and Ted Wells said it could take several more weeks, but with the flames fanned by the NFL's steady flow of leaks that casts a suspicious eye and that hurls a ton of distractions at the Patriots while they're trying to prepare for the season's penultimate game, it just doesn't seem fair.
It occurred to me later that what I suggested before about taking the footballs in question, putting them in a room at 85 degrees, then measuring the pressure, might not be possible. Reports vary, but if it's true that these footballs were reinflated by the refs at halftime then they no longer have their original pressure. But some reports say they switched to the backup footballs, other reports say they switched to the Colts footballs, and if either is the case then the test I suggested would be possible.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 59 of 466 (748682)
01-28-2015 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
01-27-2015 7:31 PM


NoNukes writes:
It does not matter what the intent was. The skin of the ball does not determine the pressure of the air inside. And both the skin and the bladder are made of materials that do not conduct heat very well.
When I tested my football I waited 1/2 hour for it to reach ambient temperature each time I moved it. As I reported earlier, the pressure changed by 2 psi with a 44 degree temperature change.
Bellichick in essence did the same test, but he didn't provide temperatures, and he didn't say how long he waited for the football to reach the same temperature as its environment.
Someone earlier reported on students who performed a similar test and changed the temperature of the football by dunking it in ice water for a few minutes.
So whatever the heat conductivity of a football cover and bladder is, it does seem to conduct heat to the interior in a half hour or less, and much less if submerged in water instead of air.
I'm suggesting that some of the scenarios postulated here that have to do with inflating the footballs when they were cold are nonsense.
The footballs weren't inflated while cold. They were inflated while warm then taken out onto a cold field.
What would be helpful to know is how warm the footballs were when they were inflated. Given that this has come up several times, I'll mention again that the footballs aren't inflated from scratch - they are already inflated when turned over to the referees, who merely adjust the pressure to that requested by the team.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 60 of 466 (748683)
01-28-2015 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
01-27-2015 7:48 PM


Re: Wilson, The Football company disagrees
NoNukes writes:
I recommend a math recheck.
Thanks, already done, see Message 43.
My problem with the data is that a temperature change that drops a ball outside of the spec by 2 pounds ought to even balls inflated near the top of the range out of spec. Yet no problem is observed with any Colt ball, and with some of the Patriots footballs. The explanation cannot simply be the temperature excursion.
I couldn't parse that first sentence, but I think I get the gist. In at least a couple earlier messages I said that if it's true that the pressure in the Colts' footballs was checked at halftime and found to be within the correct range then that is yet another mystery, because the pressure in those footballs would have dropped 1 to 2 psi once brought out on the field, depending upon how warm they were when inflated by the refs. If they were within the range on the field then they could only have been just barely within range at 12.5 psi, and even that seems unlikely. The NFL should be investigating both teams, the Patriots for underinflating, the Colts for overinflating.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2015 7:48 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 01-28-2015 2:42 PM Percy has replied

  
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