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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2166 of 2241 (749191)
02-02-2015 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2162 by Theodoric
02-02-2015 3:47 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
Theodoric writes:
You would think that god guy would be better at explaining things and writing things clearly. According to what you are saying, what is written is a real clusterfuck. Is English really that hard?
Back when you were studying this stuff. Did they ever mention this? I mean the crap they make up to try and explain these contradictions is remarkable.
Is too bad the actual writers never knew these were contradictions so they could avoid putting them in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2162 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2015 3:47 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2167 of 2241 (749192)
02-02-2015 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2159 by Faith
02-02-2015 3:27 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
Okay, I'm trying to follow this disingenuous stuff that Faith is saying.
Learned through esteemed "maker uppers".
So far as I can follow the excuses run like this.
-When god says us (implying multi-gods)...he means trinity without ever saying Trinity.
-If "gods" occur in the bible after Leviticus then it's demon gods because of these pulled out quotes>
faith writes:
see Leviticus 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
and Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Now what about stuff referring to gods, before the pulled out quotes of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. That is stuff in Exodus>
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. Exodus 12:12
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? Exodus 15:11
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods. Exodus 18:11
This occurs prior to Leviticus and the demon god excuse.
What kind of stuff do the " maker uppers" use to explain these or do these get ignored?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2159 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 3:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2168 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 8:49 PM Golffly has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2175 of 2241 (749219)
02-03-2015 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2173 by NoNukes
02-02-2015 9:28 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
nonukes writes:
However well, or unwell sourced Faith's interpretation, it is pretty evident that she did not make it up. Faith did not invent the Trinity or demons.
Surely you've heard most of this fundy stuff yourself prior to ever encountering Faith. What is the basis for your accusations that she is making stuff up?
I was doing as Percy suggests, made up from Faith means some apologist made it up.
As Jar suggested early Jews ( like everyone else) were polytheists. I think to make up otherwise, in order to have it fit a preconceived conclusion is disingenuous.
With this type of thinking one could make up whatever they think, then make the book fit that. It doesn't really matter what the conclusion is, just make up stuff to fit that.
The same process is done with literal Muslims. Making the book fit the group think.
The lengths that must be undertaken to have obvious things say things the way the " make uppers" have decided is a remarkable feat in maintaing a delusion. It is no different than what apologist Muslims do or what is done with BoM to have it be the most true book ever written.
Other books share the unique quality when distorted thinking is applied.
If I was to play a game with the Quran, like what is done with the bible. Faith would be all over it as an obvious distortion. But condones it when done with the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2173 by NoNukes, posted 02-02-2015 9:28 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2177 of 2241 (749224)
02-03-2015 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2176 by jar
02-03-2015 9:03 AM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
jar writes:
Not everyone understands that the plural of you is you'all
It wasn't very clear I see that. In retrospect, my wording should have been better.
Kind of like "us" somehow means Trinity when trinity wasn't even made up for several hundred years. So before Trinity was made up, the poor guys reading the bible thought "us" meant multiple gods. But when multiple gods are really suggested, they don't really even mean that apparently.
Unfortunately, those confused believers are all dead and went through their life believing the bible words were what they said.
It takes the astute literalists to clear this mess up and apologize to the dead folk believing just what the words said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2176 by jar, posted 02-03-2015 9:03 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2180 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2015 1:19 PM Golffly has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2179 of 2241 (749234)
02-03-2015 11:10 AM


Not sure how many guys are familiar with Mormonism. I have many in my area and have researched this a lot.
The point being the Book of Mormon (BoM) is called the most true book ever written.
It's not, it's vivid imagination and likely some plagiarism from the prophet Joe Smith. It's pure fiction.
Mormons have another book of scripture called the Book of Abraham. Now this book was considered true and literal up until last year. The book was written by Joe, shortly after BoM, in early-mid 18th century.
The book was translated by Joe, from the papyrus of an Egyptian mummy show, fortuitously travelling in the area.. Later when Egyptian could actually be read by scholars. What scholars found, was what Joe wrote was in no way related to the papyrus.
But that certainly never kept the apologists from making up all kinds of reasons as to why it was still true.
Last year, after 180 years of being true and literal, the Mormons back pedaled on the Book of Abraham. Now with some careful wording to not admit any wrongs anywhere.. it's an inspired translation.
What that means is it's not actually literally true but spiritually. Who knows what that means by the way, but a person no longer has to believe the Book of Abraham as literally true.
Despite this, many Mormons still believe the Book of Abraham is literally true.
What Faith is showing has similarities. The devout believers must have believed for many years things that simply were not true because of believing the bible words. That is " us" meant Trinity and "gods" meant demons. So the poor believers born too early, unfortunately believed bunk by Faith's own claims.
Like the poor early Mormons who believed bunk that was later corrected by the leaders of the most correct religion.
The poor early bible writing believers, believed bunk and it was later corrected by the esteemed scholars of the true religion.

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2182 of 2241 (749270)
02-03-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2180 by NoNukes
02-03-2015 1:19 PM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
NoNukes writes:
I'm not sure it was ever really clear what the plurality in Genesis meant. In the early Genesis, the we, our, us, certainly is addressed to entities all on the same team. But I don't see much evidence of the "we" stuff outside of the creation story in Genesis.
As for the Trinity. It is wholly made up by people who are not described in the Bible. If I had to guess at the reasons, I would suggest that it was done to address accusations from Jews and others that Christianity was poly-theistic and did not properly worship Yahweh. The doctrine is contradicted by Jesus own words.
I agree. The 'we" thing implies the same team. Not sure if it occurs outside Genesis, I don't think so. The Trinity is not a convincing argument but one born out of necessity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2180 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2015 1:19 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2184 of 2241 (749274)
02-03-2015 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2181 by Faith
02-03-2015 1:51 PM


Re: The end of all reason
faith writes:
So I become a believer and conscientiously spend the next couple of decades learning a lot about what the great minds of my faith taught over the last two millennia, the faith that built western civilization though that is now denied along with all the rest of it. My effort includes a lot of study of the various false religions and cults that try to imitate Christianity, along with sermon after sermon and book after book that bring the whole thing together into a magnificent revelation of spiritual things nobody could ever imagine on their own.
But it was all for naught. Now upstarts come along and call my belief a cult of all things, anything in the Bible that is even held by all believers is just "made up" and all the best reasoning anyone could give for something like the Trinity is also dismissed as invented, no matter that it has pages and pages of Biblical sources for it which I've linked in other threads.
Is this just an artifact of the weird situation of the internet where any old self-appointed "expert" can say any old thing he wants, or is this just another sign that the world is being engulfed in a chaos that's going to take us all down to The End?
Wait and see I guess.
No matter how many times Percy explains that the time spent studying over millennia of a religion is not a valid argument, you still think it's an argument.
Buddha, Hindu, Muslim are based on millennia too. By your own admission, that must be wasted study.
Why would you possibly think you'd be different when you don't have any different evidence. You have the same evidence.. unfortunately it's amounted to none.
I consider all religious beliefs as cults though. Or cult like thinking if that helps. The only difference between a true defined "cult" and a religion, is after we get to a few million or so believers then it becomes more appropriate to call it religion rather than a cult. It's more socially acceptable. Christianity was called a cult initially by non-acceptors. Once we get a few million, and it's more common, then it's religion and the others are cults. You just did it on this quote here.
I'll avoid that connotation if it's too insulting.
The world has been gulfed in chaos and going to end for 2000 years. You say nothing your brethren didn't state 2000 years ago. It was wrong then and has been wrong every generation since. But it doesn't go away because we don't live long enough. New "upstarts" keep repeating the same thing that never happened before but will soon. Then press the replay button.
Edited by Golffly, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2181 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 1:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2186 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 2:54 PM Golffly has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2187 of 2241 (749277)
02-03-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2185 by Faith
02-03-2015 2:46 PM


Re: The end of all reason
faith writes:
I claim the ability to read and understand, and find it very odd that it seems others are having a problem along those lines, although I always start out with the best of hopes for you all. I can only conclude that "these things are spiritually discerned" although that gets me accused of being arrogant,. Is it really that hard to find common ground on simple questions of fact with unbelievers? I guess it is. Oh well.
Just what would a Muslim be like if you were debating him on his religious validity?
We do no different than you would do with another religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2185 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 2:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2189 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 3:02 PM Golffly has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2197 of 2241 (749289)
02-03-2015 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2186 by Faith
02-03-2015 2:54 PM


Re: The end of all reason
faith writes:
You don't understand any of this I'm afraid. I read a lot of Buddhism and Hinduism on my way to Christianity and there is NO comparison. WHATEVER. Christianity is HISTORY above all, history that is intended to demonstrate the nature of God so that we might believe in Him.
The others are DOCTRINES and Buddhism doesn't even acknowledge God. Even Islam which is a ridiculous rip-off of Biblical religion is mostly a bunch of doctrines, like "Kill Jews" and that sort of inspiring bit of dogma.
But you believe what you believe and facts aren't going to change your mind.
Why is your religion better? You don't think Hindu, Muslims feel the same about theirs. Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America. Don't you think the new converts vetted Christianity with Islam and found Islam better.
You are stuck on a uniqueness and specialness which every religion says with as much enthusiasm as you do.
Unique, simply isn't. It's more of the same. You are the same as other religions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2186 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 2:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2199 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 3:29 PM Golffly has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2200 of 2241 (749304)
02-03-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2199 by Faith
02-03-2015 3:29 PM


Re: The end of all reason
faith writes:
Christ died for our sins, so we don't have to go to Hell. It's about CONTENT, not about "uniqueness" as such. Islam and Hinduism and Mormonism and Buddhism will take you all straight to Hell because they have nio solution to the problem of sin.
Everybody dies. How long was he dead for before he was swinging with the top guys? God knew it would happen so what's the big deal?
If the millennia studiers of Hindu, Buddha, Hindu and Mormonism are all going to hell... why is god so incompetent he can't simply prove himself instead of sending 2/3's of the planet to hell because of his inability.
You are waiting to get beamed up like every Hindu, Muslim and Mormon does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2199 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 3:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2201 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 4:14 PM Golffly has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2202 of 2241 (749312)
02-03-2015 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2201 by Faith
02-03-2015 4:14 PM


Re: The end of all reason
faith writes:
Well if you're going to eliminate Christ's salvation and reduce Christianity to the level of all the other religions, you're right, it's all the same thing and we're all going to Hell together. Fortunately you're wrong.
Don't worry Faith nobody is going to hell. They made that shit up.
You don't even have proof Christ existed let alone proof there is a god or god had a son. Lot's of gods had sons that you don't believe in.
It's no different than what you do with a hundred other gods and sons of god. You don't believe them. They are myth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2201 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 4:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2203 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 5:43 PM Golffly has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2208 of 2241 (749352)
02-03-2015 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2207 by Faith
02-03-2015 6:11 PM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
faith writes:
I didn't claim to prove anything, I merely answered the charge that it's the same as all the other religions by showing that it offers us salvation from sin through Christ's death. You can of course ignore it or disbelieve it or whatever.
Buddhist Hell kind of looks like fun with all those mean blue beings chasing everybody around with pointy things and doing unmentionable things to their poor bodies. Priobably where Hieronymus Bosch got his inspiration.
Or you could just take your chances that all ancient cultures were wrong and there is no such place and go on whistling in the dark. Bon chance!
Doesn't it seem a bit like you are pretending to be your version of god condemning all these various people to hell. Isn't that putting another god before god or lying. Aren't you kind of breaking your own commandments. That's how I read it anyway.
And Mormonism also the saving via Christ. But how do you know that matters?
I mean you can't prove you aren't going to Hindu hell?
Maybe Christian women end up as one if the concubines for the Muslim martyrs?
This stuff, your stuff and theirs, is all equal in absurdity. You criticizing Islam is the ultimate in irony. Eating a cracker is the body of a dead guy? God is fighting or playing with dragons?
The list of absurdity is nearly endless. Just because you get use to your absurdity and think it's fine, doesn't mean Muslims don't see it as absurd.
Why is Islam out performing Christianity in growth in North America?
Why does the purportedly true Christian faith have 1/3 of the planet as believers? It failed because it simply is baseless, like the other religions you criticize.
You have no right to criticize another religion..none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2207 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 6:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2209 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:27 PM Golffly has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2225 of 2241 (749398)
02-04-2015 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2221 by Faith
02-04-2015 5:52 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
faith writes:
I'm very sorry you can't see the specialness of Christ dying for our sins.
The issue with any religion is logic and evidence. You can't do anything about the evidence thing because there is none.
However, you can control your own logic. Are you really so deluded that you lack the ability to see anything from another perspective?
The Christ dying for sins is a caveat made up by Christianity. That religion deems it important.
If Muslims say you must accept Mohammed or go to hell. That is their caveat.
If Mormons say you have to pay your tithing to get to the highest level of the three heavens, that is their caveat.
Making up caveats and then saying that is special is not unique or evidence or even logical.
So you are completely non-special using some made up caveat by your religion.
Until some religion can prove the made up stuff is not made up. Every religion is in the same boat.
Again, again, again you are told you are not unique. Made up uniqueness is not relevant.
Your self - prescribed superiority is simply that.
Muslims think they are superior. Mormons know it.
Why do you continually offer logically absurd arguments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2221 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2227 of 2241 (749403)
02-04-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2223 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:27 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
faith writes:
abe: Mark 9:23-24 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
You can't avoid problems. Every post is logically bunked up or bible quotes themselves are problematic. Is your god so stupid that believers must look like buffoons?
If all things are possible why can't your god prove he exists and why am I an unbeliever. All things are possible so just pray hard for me to believe. I'll let you know tomorrow how that went.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 2230 of 2241 (749417)
02-04-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2223 by Faith
02-04-2015 6:27 AM


Re: Hell and salvation -- or not -- therefrom
Rev 7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Faith, for interest reasons I always find it curious the way or spin you put on things. I can't ever seem to anticipate what you might say.
What is you take on your quote 7:9. In light of 7:4.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2223 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 6:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2232 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:11 PM Golffly has replied

  
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