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Author Topic:   Deflation-gate
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 91 of 466 (750654)
02-20-2015 8:12 AM


More Details About the Kicking Ball
An NBC Sports article provides a clear (though who knows how accurate) description of events concerning the special teams ball (or kicking ball) that was removed from the AFC championship game: Patriots alerted NFL to issue with special-teams ball
The gist of the article is that NFL employee Scott Miller removed the ball marked "K1" from the game after the Patriots' game opening kickoff. The Patriots later noticed the ball was missing, apparently because (and I'm filling in the blanks here) Patriots kicker Stephen Gostowski liked the way "K1" had been prepped and later couldn't find it for the extra point after the Patriots' first touchdown. The Patriots alerted game officials, and Scott Miller brought a ball back, which is captured on video. Video later shows Patriots employee Jim McNally giving a football to game officials. Presumably its the same ball Scott Miller brought back on the field, but no video actually shows Miller giving a ball to McNally. The report doesn't state whether the returned ball said "K1", but presumably it did, otherwise there would be more to the story since Stephen Gostowski would have complained, "No, that's not the ball I prepped."
The article sagely concludes:
As we gradually learn more about the manner in which footballs are handled, it’s becoming more clear that the NFL doesn’t secure footballs in the kind of way that would allow a presumptive finding that deflated footballs necessarily means a team employee intentionally deflated them. Apart from potential atmospheric conditions, too many people have too much access in too many different ways to the footballs to ever conclude that evidence of deflation is per se evidence of tampering.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by NoNukes, posted 02-20-2015 10:14 AM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 466 (750656)
02-20-2015 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Percy
02-20-2015 8:12 AM


Re: More Details About the Kicking Ball
Apart from potential atmospheric conditions, too many people have too much access in too many different ways to the footballs to ever conclude that evidence of deflation is per se evidence of tampering.
Quite frankly, if this ends up being the issue that prevents resolving this sorry affair, it won't help the Patriots reputation in the least. Nothing in this story indicates that any official would have any motivation whatsoever to deflate a football. Steal one, yes, but tamper with a game ball? No.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Percy, posted 02-20-2015 8:12 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Percy, posted 02-20-2015 10:35 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 93 of 466 (750658)
02-20-2015 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by NoNukes
02-20-2015 10:14 AM


Re: More Details About the Kicking Ball
This thing about the kicking balls is actually an unrelated issue that just happened to come to light during the deflate-gate investigation.
NoNukes writes:
Quite frankly, if this ends up being the issue that prevents resolving this sorry affair, it won't help the Patriots reputation in the least.
Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, I don't think anything's going to help the Patriots' reputation. The public reaction to deflate-gate ties in to the debate here in that it highlights the way in which many people just believe what they want to believe, regardless of the evidence either way. The evidence isn't publicly known yet, we don't even know if it was 11 balls or 1 ball, but many have already made up their minds.
I wonder if Wells feels any conflict of interest. His job is to determine if the Patriots' organization engaged in any wrongdoing, but he's employed by the NFL, so if all his investigation reveals is the NFL's resemblance to the Keystone Cops then what will he do?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by NoNukes, posted 02-20-2015 10:14 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2015 9:58 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 466 (750887)
02-23-2015 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Percy
02-20-2015 10:35 AM


Re: More Details About the Kicking Ball
I wonder if Wells feels any conflict of interest. His job is to determine if the Patriots' organization engaged in any wrongdoing, but he's employed by the NFL, so if all his investigation reveals is the NFL's resemblance to the Keystone Cops then what will he do?
What you've described isn't bumbling, but is instead an act of dishonesty on the part of a league employee. And that dishonesty has absolutely zero impact on the accuracy of the investigation. The employee is guilty of stealing footballs and not tampering with ball markings or ball pressure. Pretending otherwise is just throwing up chaff.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Percy, posted 02-20-2015 10:35 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 02-24-2015 7:11 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 95 of 466 (750899)
02-24-2015 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
02-23-2015 9:58 PM


Re: More Details About the Kicking Ball
NoNukes writes:
What you've described isn't bumbling, but is instead an act of dishonesty on the part of a league employee.
My comment was about the entire Wells investigation, not just the latest leak, but there's delicious irony here. While investigating the Patriots for manipulating footballs the NFL only uncovers misconduct by one of its own employees (this is what we know for sure so far). Combined with the Ray Rice affair and all the rest, this has been a very bad twelve months for the NFL. Given that he's employed by the NFL it seems entirely fair to speculate on whether Wells feels conflicted about producing a report that puts the NFL in a bad light yet again.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2015 9:58 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 96 of 466 (755190)
04-06-2015 7:00 AM


No sign of Wells concluding his investigation yet, but...
Here's the Faux Wells Report.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 97 of 466 (757244)
05-06-2015 12:34 PM


Wells Investigation Concluded, Report Being Written
According to an article at ESPN, Wells has concluded his investigation and is now writing his report.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 05-06-2015 1:49 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 466 (757251)
05-06-2015 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Percy
05-06-2015 12:34 PM


Re: Wells Investigation Concluded, Report Being Written
According to an article at ESPN, Wells has concluded his investigation and is now writing his report.
Isn't this a non-event for which the sole effect of reporting is bringing this sorry state of affairs back to the fore front of anyone who has forgotten about it?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Percy, posted 05-06-2015 12:34 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 466 (757256)
05-06-2015 2:07 PM


Some really news after all of that fake stuff?
http://www.foxnews.com/...-employees-probably-deflated-balls
quote:
NEW YORK — An NFL investigation released Wednesday said that New England Patriots employees likely deflated footballs used in the AFC Championship and that quarterback Tom Brady was probably "at least generally aware" of the rules violations
Some info that does not seem to have leaked before:
quote:
The NFL report said "it was more than probable" that Jim McNally, the officials locker room attendant, and John Jastremski, an equipment assistant for the Patriots, were involved in "a deliberate effort to release air" from the footballs after they were examined by the referee.
The report includes text messages between McNally and Jastremski that imply Brady was requesting footballs deflated below 12.5 pounds per square inch.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 100 of 466 (757325)
05-07-2015 10:11 AM


Brady, Patriots Guilty!
I wanted to read the full Wells report before posting any comments, but the Wells report is 143 pages and I'm a bit tied up at present, so I'll make a few brief comments now and reading the Wells report will have to wait. At his point I've only read a couple brief newspaper articles. It'll be interesting to see if my opinions change at all after reading the report.
  • Brady Knew
    Tom Brady didn't underinflate the footballs himself, but he knew and must be held accountable. He has to hold a press conference where he must come clean and tell the full truth, including why he didn't make his cell phone data available to Wells. Anything short of that will be a significant blot on his career.
  • Brady Must Be Punished
    The NFL must issue Brady a stern punishment. I think a 4-game suspension seems reasonable, but one could argue that the sheer arrogance, the abject disdain of NFL rules, the baldfaced public lies, deserve something more, and I could understand an argument for a full season suspension.
  • There Must Be Firings
    The two men responsible evidently felt they were in a battle with referees over ball pressure. It is apparent they felt that Patriot ball pressure requests were being ignored, indeed flagrantly and contemptuously so to judge by the language in their texts, and so they felt it reasonable to remedy this injustice by adjusting the ball pressure before the balls were delivered to the field. Whatever their rationale, they must be fired.
  • The Patriot Organization Must Be Punished
    While apparently no one outside of Brady and these two men were involved, the Patriot organization is responsible for management and oversight and must accept full responsibility. They said they were cooperating fully with the investigation, yet they allowed Brady to keep his cell phone data private. I think a fine of $5,000,000 and the loss of their first round pick for the next three years is appropriate.
  • What About the Inflation Evidence?
    Most of my interest in this stemmed from puzzlement bordering on disbelief that there could be so little awareness of how much temperature can affect football pressure, but I saw nothing in the two newspaper articles I read about how many footballs were actually underinflated and by how much. I'll have to wait until I read the Wells report to find out.
More after I read the Wells report.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 05-07-2015 12:12 PM Percy has replied
 Message 103 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2015 4:20 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 106 by Stile, posted 05-14-2015 3:10 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 101 of 466 (757338)
05-07-2015 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
05-07-2015 10:11 AM


Re: Brady, Patriots Guilty!
Tom Brady has issued a strong statement.
I agree somewhat with his statement. There's no smoking gun. There are inferences that are reasonable but not absolutey established.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 05-07-2015 10:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 05-07-2015 1:37 PM JonF has not replied
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2015 4:25 PM JonF has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 102 of 466 (757345)
05-07-2015 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by JonF
05-07-2015 12:12 PM


Re: Brady, Patriots Guilty!
JonF writes:
I agree somewhat with his statement. There's no smoking gun. There are inferences that are reasonable but not absolutey established.
Granted.
I of course still haven't read the Wells Report, but I know Brady as well as any average fan can know him, having followed his career since he first broke into prominence in 2001. He's hypercompetitive. He could easily see this not as an issue of honesty and integrity but as just another battle to be won. Moments that come to mind are his treatment of the mother of his first child (paraphrasing, "Things happen in life..."), his treatment of an opposing coach's attempt to make generous comments after defeating the Patriots (paraphrasing, "He doesn't know our team, he should shut his face..."), and the shoot-em-up at his wedding (paraphrasing, "Nothing to do with me, not my fault..."). I think his defensive mechanisms and competitive nature get his dander up and submerge his moral side.
Not sharing texts and emails looks really bad. I assume it was on advice of counsel, but still...
He is by all accounts a wonderful guy, but so, supposedly, were Bing Crosby and Joan Crawford. Who really knows?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 05-07-2015 12:12 PM JonF has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 466 (757347)
05-07-2015 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
05-07-2015 10:11 AM


Re: Brady, Patriots Guilty!
Most of my interest in this stemmed from puzzlement bordering on disbelief that there could be so little awareness of how much temperature can affect football pressure, but I saw nothing in the two newspaper articles I read about how many footballs were actually underinflated and by how much. I'll have to wait until I read the Wells report to find out..
The numbers are in the report. There is a conclusory statement that the out of spec results is not explained by the ideal gas law and some evidence and analysis in the report to back up the claim. Quite frankly, my opinion is that there was never any evidence that the NFL was ignoring the effect of temperature, although some people in the press might have done so.
. It is apparent they felt that Patriot ball pressure requests were being ignored, indeed flagrantly and contemptuously so to judge by the language in their texts, and so they felt it reasonable to remedy this injustice by adjusting the ball pressure before the balls were delivered to the field. Whatever their rationale, they must be fired.
I'm not convinced that this is an apt description of the employees attitudes. It appeared to me that the desired ball pressure was something less that 12.5 pounds. Given the data on the footballs it seems likely that every single ball was inflated to a pressure something close to the low end of that by the referees and that the equipment dudes wanted the pressure a bit lower than that. Further, I'm not convinced that the contempt shown in their conversation was not generated by beefs with the organization rather than with the officials. I highly doubt that anyone acted on their threats to inflate the footballs up to rubgy ball sizes.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 05-07-2015 10:11 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 466 (757348)
05-07-2015 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by JonF
05-07-2015 12:12 PM


Re: Brady, Patriots Guilty!
Tom Brady has issued a strong statement.
As I read the article, the statement came from Tom Brady's agent. A statement from Tom himself might have more credibility, but the agent is free to be disappointed and to comment on the possibility of the report being off the mark, because the agent was likely not involved. It's kinda like your lawyer complaining about his client's conviction on weak evidence and a 'rush to justice' without opining about whether his client were actually guilty. Brady will not have that luxury if/when he offers a statement.
The organization says they accept the report. So where is Brady's personal statement on the matter?
Edited by NoNukes, : compare to lawyer

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 05-07-2015 12:12 PM JonF has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 105 of 466 (757834)
05-14-2015 2:18 PM


Patriot Response
The Patriot organization today issued a response (The Wells Report in Context) to the NFL's Wells report. I haven't had time to read the voluminous Wells Report and so haven't read this response, either, but I did scan through the first few pages, and one thing stood out.
The Wells Report didn't properly factor together two closely related issues: two different pressure gauges giving two different readings, and the effect of temperature on ball pressure. This surprised me. There seems to have been plenty of time to get this right.
Concerning what I said earlier about what the punishments should be, if Brady and the Patriots are guilty then I stand by that. But I was relying on news reports and assuming that those reporting on the Wells report had read it. I assumed that if the evidence didn't support the conclusions that those who had read the report would have said so, and I interpreted the local media's questioning of the report as knee-jerk homerism. Now it seems possible that the national media placed too much reliance on the reports conclusions and paid not enough attention to the evidence itself. I should have remembered that terms like "Ideal Gas Law" put most sports reporters into a catatonic trance.
Brady's going to challenge the findings and it should be a hell of a fight. Get your popcorn ready.
Goodell may want to begin cleaning up his resume.
--Percy

  
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