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Author Topic:   Presbyterian Church approves of same-sex marriages
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 123 (753220)
03-18-2015 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
03-18-2015 9:38 AM


Club Rules
Inevitable progress, I suppose. You have mentioned before that you think that Christians need to try and do their best to eliminate bigotry and prejudice, and i agree. My questions, on this subject..are these:
1) Apart from Jesus, why should a male limit his commitment to only one other male? Should not a member of the "Body" of Christ strive to commit to everyone in the body rather than simply one person?
2) What rules does your club have? What recommendations might a Priest or Reverand have for a soon-to-be-married couple and also, why not emphasize to all that Jesus should be our main love interest?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 9:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 10:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 123 (753224)
03-18-2015 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
03-18-2015 10:41 AM


Re: Club Rules
are you that dense? Do you not know the difference between flesh and Spirit? Honestly, jar I think your intellect prevents you from understanding the simplicity of Christian concepts...which you somehow regard as "silly". sheesh

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 10:41 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 123 (753225)
03-18-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
03-18-2015 10:41 AM


Re: Club Rules
Lets try this again.
In my opinion, when a male limits his love to only one other male, he is basically becoming idolatrous...avoiding Jesus...and living "in the flesh".
You do know the meaning of living in the flesh, I hope. (seeing as how you claim to have read the Bible)
Any two people...of whatever gender combination...have a legal right to get married, but there must be a spiritual purpose to the communion.
Again, you do understand spirit, I trust. (Seeing as how you claim to have read the Bible)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 10:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 11:21 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2015 11:25 AM Phat has replied
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 03-18-2015 4:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 123 (753229)
03-18-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
03-18-2015 11:25 AM


Re: Club Rules
Cat writes:
Are you trying to denigrate a male-male marriage by saying that it means that the male is limiting his love to one male, and therefore no longer loving Jesus?
No. Im saying that any two people should be committed to God first...before each other.
Why doesn't that happen when a woman marries a man?
It can happen.
Why can't the man love his husband and also love Jesus?
He can. My point is that if a man and woman get married, the purpose is to raise a family. Two men have no such restriction and should not have a need to focus exclusively on each other.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2015 11:25 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by DrJones*, posted 03-18-2015 11:49 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2015 11:54 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 11:55 AM Phat has replied
 Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 03-19-2015 4:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 123 (753252)
03-18-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-18-2015 11:55 AM


Re: Club Rules
Phat writes:
My point is that if a man and woman get married, the purpose is to raise a family. Two men have no such restriction and should not have a need to focus exclusively on each other.
jar writes:
I'm sorry but that is just nonsense. Why can't unmarried couples raise a family or married couples have no intention of ever raising a family?
Again...they can. MY point is that even though anyone has or should have every legal right to marry whomsoever they want, a church has a primary obligation of joining people in communion with God first---before joining them with each other.
My point was that in my opinion there is little need for two of the same gender to marry since it is selfish to focus on each other to the exclusion of others. The order of communion should be this:
1) To God
2) To Others
Loving ones partner above either God or others is, in my opinion, selfish.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 11:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-18-2015 1:42 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2015 1:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 15 by Larni, posted 03-18-2015 2:28 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 03-18-2015 3:57 PM Phat has replied
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 03-19-2015 1:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 30 by Theodoric, posted 03-19-2015 4:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 123 (753310)
03-19-2015 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes
03-18-2015 4:00 PM


Re: Club Rules
This quote sums it up.
quote:
The PCUSA was already denying the virgin birth, resurrection, miracles of Jesus, and the inerrancy of the Bible in the 1920s. At the same time they were using the great liberal tactic of being vague, redefining the meanings of words, and using the good old argument that there are many ways to interpret what the Bible says to deny that they did not believe those things. It's not much of a step to get them to this point.
I take this to mean that you cannot imagine or accept a spiritual purpose for a union between two Christian men, be that union marriage, friendship, or simply agreeing to walk the same way along a road.
My point is that there is no purpose for marriage between two Christian men. Let it be legal, I've no problem with legalization---we are, after all a pluralistic society.
For a church to endorse such behavior, however, means that the church is weak, vague, and unable to comprehend the reality of a spiritual union rather than an unneeded physical one.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 03-18-2015 4:00 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 03-19-2015 8:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 22 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-19-2015 9:05 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 23 by Heathen, posted 03-19-2015 10:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 03-19-2015 12:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 123 (753312)
03-19-2015 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
03-18-2015 3:57 PM


Re: Club Rules
Jon writes:
Shouldn't the kind of love for God be completely different than the kind of love for one another?
Yes and No.
The Spirit should transcend the Flesh.
Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit to spirit.
If a couple (of whatever gender) has not the spirit, I would expect them to cuddle and satisfy their needs until the cows came home.
What I dont expect nor accept is a couple in church limiting themselves to carnal expression.
A church is much more than a social club for meeting people.
Marriage is a symbol.
I see no point nor purpose for marriage between two men.
That is, for the record, my opinion.
Give them their rights as a secular society.
This church is, sadly a club I would want to avoid. They have no spirituality.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 03-18-2015 3:57 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-19-2015 10:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 03-19-2015 12:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 03-19-2015 5:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 123 (753531)
03-20-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
03-19-2015 5:51 PM


Phats Opinion
for the sake of clarity don't you think you could provide some reasons for that opinion?
Sure. When I say I see no point for marriage between two men, I shuld say that I do see the legal and financial advantages...and that society should treat all people fairly and not favor married folks economically---hence the need for a marriage, I suppose.
my issue is with the church itself, and its relationship with parishioners.
The church should encourage everyone---not just gays--to fight sins of the flesh. This is why I see no need for two men to get married...apart from the reasons I mentioned. Why cant two men simply live together(as brothers and spiritual lovers) if they so wish? The only issue I have here is selfishness. Why limit your love to just one man?(apart from Jesus, of course)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 03-19-2015 5:51 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:01 PM Phat has replied
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 03-20-2015 1:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 123 (753533)
03-20-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
03-20-2015 1:01 PM


Re: Phats Opinion
the term means "with more than one"...right?
perhaps we should define homosexuality.
To me it means same gender attraction.
Same gender attraction is inborn and cannot be helped.
Actions, however...can be helped.
For a man to love more than one man in no way implies that sex is even part of the equation.
Why should it be?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 123 (753537)
03-20-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jon
03-20-2015 1:09 PM


Re: Phats Opinion
Again...lets define terms. What does chaste even mean?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:09 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 123 (753543)
03-20-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
03-20-2015 1:19 PM


Re: Phats Opinion
Did Jesus tell people to limit their love to only him? What kind of BS are you pushing with this comment?
A man who loves Jesus first...with his whole heart, soul, mind and strength has no need of another man to idolize, fantasize over and worship.(nor to need sex)
Do you have a problem with loving God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 03-20-2015 1:19 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2015 1:28 PM Phat has replied
 Message 41 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 2:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 03-20-2015 2:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 123 (753559)
03-20-2015 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
03-20-2015 2:07 PM


Re: Phats Opinion
jar writes:
What the hell does that even mean?
How would that exclude loving anyone else?
The problem here---as I see it---is that you people don't understand the basic differences between needs and wants.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 2:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 2:58 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 03-21-2015 12:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 123 (753562)
03-20-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2015 1:28 PM


Re: Phats Opinion
CatSci writes:
By that logic, women shouldn't marry men either.
If either partner finds themself idolizing the other and/or worshiping them than no, they shouldn't be married.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2015 1:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2015 3:08 PM Phat has replied
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 3:10 PM Phat has replied
 Message 49 by coffee_addict, posted 03-20-2015 9:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 50 of 123 (753624)
03-21-2015 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by coffee_addict
03-20-2015 9:51 PM


Re: Phats Opinion
No on all three. I have had lots of close friends and intimate relationships, however. Personally, I don’t believe that men should have feelings for other men...on the same level. That being said, I also feel that The church should not fight such relationships.Perhaps they can counsel and discuss such issues with their own members, but even then they should tread lightly and be sensitive.
Edited by Phat, : added input

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by coffee_addict, posted 03-20-2015 9:51 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by nwr, posted 03-21-2015 12:11 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 81 by coffee_addict, posted 03-22-2015 3:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 123 (753625)
03-21-2015 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
03-20-2015 3:10 PM


Re: Phats Opinion
So the more in love they are then the more reason they have to not marry?
Lets define what "being in love" involves and why it requires intimate physical contact.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 3:10 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 03-21-2015 10:45 AM Phat has replied

  
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