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Author Topic:   Windows 8
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 61 of 97 (754593)
03-29-2015 8:50 AM


Why I Fear Upgrading
Here's a list of items that affect me each time I upgrade to a new OS or have to configure a new computer. Some of these types of things may be what Jon was referring to when he said something about making us learn new processes with every new OS version:
  • Key Swap: Since XP, this can only be done through the registry. I can edit the registry myself using regedit, but typing hexidecimal values is both klunky and error prone. I prefer that a program do this, which leads me to the next item.
  • X-Setup Pro: This is the program I use to edit the registry. It worked fine in XP, not so well in 7. If it doesn't work in 8 I'll have to find a new program.
  • X-Mouse Behavior: Focus follows mouse. Will this behavior still be available in 8? In 10? To Windows credit, at least they can do it. Mac's can't (some will claim it can - it really can't - because of some inherent properties of the Mac OS it can only sort of partially provide it).
  • Classic Alt Tab Behavior: This went away with 7. Restoring classic alt-tab behavior requires editing the registry. Will this still be possible in 8? In 10?
  • Classic Quicklaunch Toolbar: This went away with 7. Restoring the classic Quicklaunch toolbar requires creating and carefully positioning a new toolbar, then modifying its properties. Will this still work in 8? In 10?
  • Combining Taskbar Icons with Labels: Labels were new in 7. The intent was to eliminate the need for the Quicklaunch toolbar by moving the function into the taskbar. Combining taskbar icons with labels restores the old behavior and appearance of the taskbar. The only way I found to do this was a program called 7 Taskbar Tweaker. Taskbar properties also must be edited. Weill this still work in 8? In 10?
  • HandyThing: A window sizing/positioning tool. Single key clicks size and place windows at predefined positions. Some functions don't work in 7. Will this work in 8? In 10?
  • Microsoft Office: Has to be reinstalled. Make sure you save your PST's (emails) so you can restore them after the OS install. There's a lot of details to getting the exact same configuration you had before, and some of them have to be selected during install.
  • Alt-Tab: The number of rows and columns for alt-tab can only be controlled from the registry.
  • CygWin: Unix emulation on Windows. Will it work the same on 8? On 10?
  • CygWin Xemacs: I'm most productive with the emacs editor. Will it be available on 8? On 10? Is it even still available? Last time I was at CygWin I didn't see Xemacs in the list, but maybe I forgot what sub-category they put it in.
  • Quicken: Have to reinstall, which means I'll have to pay to upgrade to the current version. Have to make sure to save the data files before the OS install.
  • Apache: With every new Windows OS Apache becomes ever more difficult to install.
  • MySQL: In 7 you could install MySQL and Apache at the same time, but it was very confusing. What will installation be like in 8? In 10?
  • PHP: In 7 you have to install it and update the httpd.conf file. What will installation be like in 8? In 10?
  • Perl: This has always been an easy install, hopefully it remains that way.
  • Subversion: Should be an easy install, but I will have to check everything back in to the server before the upgrade.
  • Random Other Applications: AutoHotKeys, Answers-1Click, Pandora, Norton Ghost, VNC, Inkscape, security software.
  • And a question: Upgrading to a new OS on a Mac doesn't require completely reinstalling all your tools. When will Windows catch up?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by coffee_addict, posted 03-29-2015 11:32 AM Percy has replied
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 03-29-2015 11:34 AM Percy has replied
 Message 91 by JonF, posted 04-12-2015 8:45 AM Percy has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 62 of 97 (754614)
03-29-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Percy
03-29-2015 8:50 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
Hi Percy
I noticed that most of what's on your list are hack tools. Yes, it is true that with each OS upgrade, MS has made it harder and harder for people to hack their system. I don't think it's fair to judge an OS based on what you can hack.
Regarding upgrading and reinstalling all your tools, again I don't think it's fair to compare PC with MAC. MAC makes their own hardware and software. When they upgrade, they know exactly what drivers and utilities to work with. With windows, how many manufacturers are out there? How many people build their own systems? Take me, for example. Before I got my current device (surface pro 3), I built all my desktop setups. After I got this device, I just gave them all away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Percy, posted 03-29-2015 8:50 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 03-29-2015 4:58 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 97 (754615)
03-29-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Percy
03-29-2015 8:50 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
I'm curious what you estimate the total costs would be to updating everything and how much time it would take you to learn the new procedures.
Also, have you seen anything in Windows 8 that you think would benefit you? Does it appear to have any features that would increase your productivity? Make life easier?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Percy, posted 03-29-2015 8:50 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 03-29-2015 5:07 PM Jon has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 64 of 97 (754652)
03-29-2015 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by coffee_addict
03-29-2015 11:32 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
coffee_addict writes:
I noticed that most of what's on your list are hack tools. Yes, it is true that with each OS upgrade, MS has made it harder and harder for people to hack their system. I don't think it's fair to judge an OS based on what you can hack.
What's a "hack tool"? With each new release of Windows I'm only trying to do the same thing I could do in previous releases, and I'm not making any judgments about OS's. What i notice in the progression from Windows 95 to XP to Windows 7 is that each new release makes it increasingly difficult for me to maintain the development environment I'm accustomed to and that enables me to be most productive. Given this history my fear of what difficulties future Windows OS's might introduce seems justified.
Regarding upgrading and reinstalling all your tools, again I don't think it's fair to compare PC with MAC.
Sure it is. PC has its own advantages, such as more applications and earlier availability of new releases of applications. Comparisons are not only fair but essential so that both producers and consumers make intelligent decisions.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by coffee_addict, posted 03-29-2015 11:32 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by coffee_addict, posted 03-29-2015 6:20 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 65 of 97 (754653)
03-29-2015 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Jon
03-29-2015 11:34 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
When I upgraded from XP to 7 I'd estimate it took around 40-60 hours. Hard to say exactly. Some things I took care of that first week and I pretty much know what they are. Other things I only became aware of over time.
I don't consider my experience typical. Most people use OS's pretty much as is out-of-the-box. Coming from a Unix background beginning around 30 years ago, when I began also using Windows I of course tried to make the environment as similar as possible, since I was constantly moving back and forth between them.
Doing my web development on Windows while the server runs on Linux helps me cover both OS's with a minimum of effort.
I haven't taken a look at Windows 8 yet, but my current development machine is showing signs of unreliability, so I might be forced to look into it more soon. Can't tell right now.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 03-29-2015 11:34 AM Jon has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 66 of 97 (754656)
03-29-2015 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
03-29-2015 4:58 PM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
Percy writes:
quote:
What's a "hack tool"?
You don't consider changing the registry around as hacking?
quote:
With each new release of Windows I'm only trying to do the same thing I could do in previous releases, and I'm not making any judgments about OS's. What i notice in the progression from Windows 95 to XP to Windows 7 is that each new release makes it increasingly difficult for me to maintain the development environment I'm accustomed to and that enables me to be most productive. Given this history my fear of what difficulties future Windows OS's might introduce seems justified.
No argument from me here.
quote:
Sure it is. PC has its own advantages, such as more applications and earlier availability of new releases of applications. Comparisons are not only fair but essential so that both producers and consumers make intelligent decisions.
Apples and oranges.
Apple only needs to maintain support for the drivers and utilities that they created for their devices. Again, how many PC manufacturers are out there? How many 3rd party hardware and software manufacturers are out there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 03-29-2015 4:58 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Jon, posted 03-29-2015 6:54 PM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 03-29-2015 8:51 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 97 (754657)
03-29-2015 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by coffee_addict
03-29-2015 6:20 PM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
You don't consider changing the registry around as hacking?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by coffee_addict, posted 03-29-2015 6:20 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by coffee_addict, posted 03-29-2015 7:15 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 68 of 97 (754658)
03-29-2015 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jon
03-29-2015 6:54 PM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
Somehow, I doubt Percy's experience has much to do with your complaints.
Why not start listing your problems with windows 8 and we can discuss about them?
Keep in mind that the vast majority of users are not power users. Changing registry around may be child's play for you, but for most people it's not something they would be inclined to do.
For one of my apps, in order for the user to properly use one of the components they have to run a script I wrote that change something in the registry. I really really tried to avoid taking that step. I still consider it as a quick fix and not a real fix. It shouldn't be something taken lightly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Jon, posted 03-29-2015 6:54 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 69 of 97 (754663)
03-29-2015 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by coffee_addict
03-29-2015 6:20 PM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
coffee_addict writes:
quote:
What's a "hack tool"?
You don't consider changing the registry around as hacking?
You do?
Seriously, if you want a discussion you're going to have to give me more to go on. I have no idea why you think that.
Apples and oranges.
Apple only needs to maintain support for the drivers and utilities that they created for their devices. Again, how many PC manufacturers are out there? How many 3rd party hardware and software manufacturers are out there?
You made that argument already.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by coffee_addict, posted 03-29-2015 6:20 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by coffee_addict, posted 03-30-2015 2:34 AM Percy has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 70 of 97 (754678)
03-30-2015 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
03-29-2015 8:51 PM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
I guess what I'm trying to say is almost all people out there do not use the kind of tools that you use. Jon's original argument is windows 8 is not productive. You seem to be siding with him. I'm just trying to understand what part of 8 or 8.1 that would make people like Jon think the OS is useless. After all, I'm an engineer and an app developer. I use 8.1 everyday and I find it quite useful.
If you and Jon want to tell me that I haven't really been productive with 8.1, I need more specific things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 03-29-2015 8:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 03-30-2015 8:00 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 71 of 97 (754683)
03-30-2015 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by coffee_addict
03-30-2015 2:34 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
coffee_addict writes:
If you and Jon want to tell me that I haven't really been productive with 8.1, I need more specific things.
Though I do think there's some overlap in our positions, I won't pretend to speak for Jon.
I think you might be imagining a different argument than I'm actually making. By way of example, let's say the IDE you like on 8.1 won't run on 10. How might that affect your eagerness to migrate to 10?
Or here's an example from my own experience. Imagine you have an app, let's call it Answers 1-Click, that allows you to position your mouse over any word on the screen and with one key click bring up a little window box with its definition, and with links that will take you to its thesaurus and Wikipedia pages. Now imagine that you upgrade from XP to 7 and Answers 1-Click no longer works.
Now imagine that a dozen other tools are also affected in variously severe ways.
I'm assuming that the migration from 7 to 8 will be roughly just as painful as the migration from XP to 7, so I'm naturally going to avoid it as long as possible. This is a migration issue, not a claim that Windows 8 sucks. Sure, Microsoft sucks, but that's a different issue.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by coffee_addict, posted 03-30-2015 2:34 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by dwise1, posted 03-30-2015 10:49 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 73 by coffee_addict, posted 03-30-2015 10:55 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 72 of 97 (754689)
03-30-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
03-30-2015 8:00 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
I'm assuming that the migration from 7 to 8 will be roughly just as painful as the migration from XP to 7, ...
That all depends. Some new versions are mainly improved versions of the previous version correcting some of the problems of that previous version, which was the case of the migration from Vista to 7. Other times it's a major departure from the previous version, which was the case going from XP to Vista.
Therefore, the major pain you experienced transitioning from XP to 7 also involved that major transition from XP to Vista. I also made that transition (XP to 7) a few years ago. I still am not as productive in 7 as I am in XP. I have text file archives that I need to search, but Win7's search has been completely screwed up, so I cannot perform those searches. grep no longer works on the command line, so I don't even have that tool anymore. I have just recently discovered the existence of FINDSTR, but haven't had the time to experiment with it yet. And, yes, I have tried some third-party search utilities, all of which were just as bad as the native utility (eg, went to a specific directory, verified the existence of a file in that directory, did a search for that specific file's name, and search could not find it with both hands and a flashlight). WinXP's search is a dream to use and very effective. Win7's "improved" search is a piece of crap. And when I experience networking problems Win7 is a nightmare, whereas XP is a dream to work with.
I have been a software engineer since 1982, working mainly with embedded software. The newer versions do not allow some of our development tools to work. That robs us of the ability to support our products. As a result, we need to maintain older versions of Windows and have to be very creative in finding ways of working around Microsoft.
I was also in the Navy Reserve, now retired. Every time a new version of Windows would come out, the Navy would immediately order that nobody buy until they could test it out thoroughly to determine the detrimental impact of using it. Usually, they'd have to adopt it anyway since our vendors wouldn't supply us with anything but the new version. Private sector companies experience the same problems and the same reluctance to adopt.
What migrating to 8 would involve, I don't know. I only adopt when I have to buy a new computer for home. My main problem with every single version was "Where the hell are they hiding it this time?" Like being able to change the shell's PATH environment variable. Though now with networking problems in 7 it's trying to find a dialog to do some useful troubleshooting. The only actual improvement I found in Win7 was that the help utility finally became helpful.
That idiotic tiled interface on Win8 is the biggest obstacle for me. Really stupid waste of real estate! I talked with a user and he said it always started up that way and you had to then move to an alternative screen which completely changed how to get to anything useful. Another user was complaining about unexpected changes in how email was being handled, such that an email that he thought had been sent wasn't.
I successfully dodged the Vista bullet and probably will do the same with 8, since the next time I buy a computer I'll have to deal with the "improvements" of 10.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 03-30-2015 8:00 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 73 of 97 (754690)
03-30-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
03-30-2015 8:00 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
Percy writes:
quote:
I think you might be imagining a different argument than I'm actually making. By way of example, let's say the IDE you like on 8.1 won't run on 10. How might that affect your eagerness to migrate to 10?
Or here's an example from my own experience. Imagine you have an app, let's call it Answers 1-Click, that allows you to position your mouse over any word on the screen and with one key click bring up a little window box with its definition, and with links that will take you to its thesaurus and Wikipedia pages. Now imagine that you upgrade from XP to 7 and Answers 1-Click no longer works.
Now imagine that a dozen other tools are also affected in variously severe ways.
I'm assuming that the migration from 7 to 8 will be roughly just as painful as the migration from XP to 7, so I'm naturally going to avoid it as long as possible. This is a migration issue, not a claim that Windows 8 sucks. Sure, Microsoft sucks, but that's a different issue.
I've been in agreement with you more than you think. I have always held the position that if you like your current system you should continue to use it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sticking with xp.
What I've been trying to do is get Jon to actually discuss with me on windows 8/8.1 and why he thinks it is useless instead of linking me to blogs, which is little more than hearsay.
The next big question is is Jon willing to admit that his anti-8/8.1 sentiment mostly comes from hearsay?
Anyway, as for myself windows 8/8.1 has been a godsend. When it first came out and I read how so many people hated it and how horrible it was, I had my reservations with upgrading. Stayed with 7 for a while, actually.
Then I started working for a new company and somehow decided that the cosmos wanted me to upgrade. I upgraded my desktop to windows 8. After having worked with it for a week, I said to myself "hey, this isn't so bad. Almost everything I've read online about windows 8 have been a lie!"
Software compatibility issues? It's nonexistent for me. I have not found a single software that would not work on 8.
As I mentioned before how being specific is a good thing, here are some specifics to why 8/8.1 offered me. I'm a structural engineer specializing in construction management. Have you ever seen someone try to fumble around with the traditional laptop (keyboard and touchpad) out in a construction site? I'm guessing not. Let me tell you that it's a painful sight. 8's touch-centric metro interface works wonderfully when one needs to work on his feet.
And back in the office, I can get work done while on the desktop environment, which I have found is pretty much the same experience as windows 7. Everything is still there.
See, Jon's argument so far has been how much people don't like windows 8/8.1. I've suspected since the beginning that he's got no real experience with this system and most of what he's said has been hearsay. There's a lot of hate for 8/8.1 floating around on the internet, mostly from misconceptions.
As a matter of fact, I see a lot of parallel between hating 8/8.1 and Obama. People seem to hate Obama for made-up fictional things that he supposedly did.
Anyway, Percy, if you want to keep all your tools, I don't see a reason why you should upgrade. Just stay with XP or 7, whichever system you are most comfortable with.
PS - Jon should be happy to hear that windows 10 is pretty much windows 7.1. There really isn't a touch-centric interface for 10/7.1, so I'm thinking I'll be skipping 10/7.1. He should make sure he reads plenty of hearsay blogs about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 03-30-2015 8:00 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 74 of 97 (754711)
03-30-2015 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by dwise1
03-30-2015 10:49 AM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
My main problem with every single version was "Where the hell are they hiding it this time?
That's been mostly my problem with Win8, I installed Classic Shell which brings back a lot of the look of older windows versions but there are still problems. New computers running Win8 were setting the office network to "public", which affects file and printer sharing. In older windows it was no problem to change a networks security level from public to private/work but in Win8 you have to go into User Account Controls, turn the security level there down and then you can change the network settings. Pain in the ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by dwise1, posted 03-30-2015 10:49 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Percy, posted 03-30-2015 4:28 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 75 of 97 (754721)
03-30-2015 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by DrJones*
03-30-2015 2:05 PM


Re: Why I Fear Upgrading
DrJones* writes:
My main problem with every single version was "Where the hell are they hiding it this time?
That's been mostly my problem with Win8...
In my own opinion it has been a consistent problem with all the releases from Win 95 on. I didn't appreciate the Win 7 changes to the way the Control Panel was organized, nor the changes to the folder appearance, nor how network settings are presented and modified.
Speaking of network settings, they give you a link to disable your LAN, and you expect that if you click on it it will be replaced with a link to enable your LAN. But no, the link just disappears. You have to go elsewhere to turn your LAN back on.
Here's another one. I have Windows 7 Professional edition, and after a couple years one of the Windows security updates changed the way some software automatically updates itself. Actually, the only software affected was the Chrome browser. I only became aware of the problem when Chrome released a bug fix and I didn't get it. Fortunately this auto-update issue is a known problem, but I had to use my administrator privileges (which in 7 are handled differently than XP, and better I might add, but it's yet another thing that's different) and follow a lengthy set of instructions to get Chrome to continue to automatically update itself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by DrJones*, posted 03-30-2015 2:05 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Jon, posted 03-30-2015 8:25 PM Percy has replied

  
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