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Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
From your post it sounds like you are hoping to stumble upon some reason to conclude that old earth dating methods are incorrect.
Would this be a correct summary?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
OK.
That part is outside of my field. I do radiocarbon dating, but have never dealt with the other radiometric dating methods.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Stick around. This is a good place to learn things.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
They don't, because the amount rings of the tree is meaningless to carbon-14 dating. This is absolutely wrong. But feel free to try and prove that your statement is accurate, if you think you can. (Remember to bring some evidence.)Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
It's a myth. Tree ring dating does not improve radiocarbon dating, and the data prove it. Tree rings are not all produced one per year; and they aren't very distinct in small trees. It's NUTBALL JUNK. It is obvious radiocarbon dating is not based on it. Your ignorance concerning radiocarbon dating is exceeded only by your zeal in trying to discredit the technique. Please tell us, how many radiocarbon samples you have submitted for analysis? (I have submitted somewhere over 650.) Also, please tell us the source of your vast knowledge of the subject. (I have lectured extensively on the subject and authored a monograph on it as well. And was a while back on the advisory board of a radiocarbon laboratory.) "The data prove it?" Please advise us, in detail, what that data might be. And please address, while you are at it, the conciliance between known historical dates and calibrated radiocarbon dates. By the way, those calibrated radiocarbon dates are obtained by using a calibration curve based on tree-rings (from several locations), corals, glacial carves, ice cores, deep lake cores, and other annular data. Please explain to us why all of them agree, and why you think all of them are wrong (maybe some creationist website told you so?). What your posts show is that you really know nothing about the subject, but most likely, out of religious zeal, you are attempting to discredit it anyway. Your efforts would be a lot more effective if you knew something about what you were debating. Otherwise you just look pretty silly.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Try this link and see if it helps:
Radiometric DatingReligious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Like much of what passes for "science", it's not observable science. Anything that's not observable science comes up short in being testable and falsifiable enough to be without controversy. The dichotomy between science and "observable" science is simply another (of many) ways creationists try to disparage any scientific evidence that conflicts with their beliefs. And as usual there is no factual basis behind their claims. And "controversy?" That's reminiscent of "teach the controversy." That's another creationist ploy to disparage science that conflicts with their beliefs. Regarding evolution, there is no controversy within science, its just a "controversy" cooked up by creationists in their never-ending but futile attack on science in general and evolution in particular.
The reams of material you've come up with, (and continue to come up with, I see) has been amassed for over a hundred years by scientists who first came to a conclusion, (the earth MUST be old for Darwinism to work) then choose evidence that supports that conclusion, and ignores evidence that doesn't. Abject nonsense. Any scientist who could prove a young earth with evidence would be showered with Nobel prizes. But its interesting that you say, "...scientists who first came to a conclusion, (the earth MUST be old for Darwinism to work) then choose evidence that supports that conclusion, and ignores evidence that doesn't" as that's just the method creationists use to support their religious beliefs. Projection, eh?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
...non-observational science that isn't provable. This one line alone shows you have little understanding of science and how it works. First, NOTHING IN SCIENCE IS PROVED OR PROVABLE. Sorry for the caps, but this is far from the first time I've had to post this, as creationists either don't listen or don't accept what science is and how it actually functions. Here are some definitions which might help:
Secondly, your "non-observational science" is just one of the recent creationists efforts to try and pry apart the scientific method and get rid of those sciences which contradict religious beliefs. A more basic creationist line is, "Where you there?" This is just creationist nonsense which shows a lack of understanding of science--or more likely a desire to destroy the results of a wide range of different scientific fields for non-scientific reasons. These tactics might work among creationists and the ignorant, but they don't work against those with a basic knowledge of science. They shouldn't even be attempted in a place like this.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Events of the past aren't repeatable, and aren't observable, so there are 2 that are missing from this thread's claims of an ancient earth. Absolutely false. Just as one example: radiocarbon dating can be used on anything that was once living, up to about 50,000 years. That means that, for example, I can date hundreds of marine shells from a particular Indian site. And, in many sites I can date those shells from discrete layers, dating several layers to determine whether they are superimposed, as undisturbed middens should be. And I can do this with hundreds of different sites. My colleagues around the world push this into the hundreds of thousands of sites. This satisfies both the not repeatable and not observable claims made by creationists. As RAZD has observed at length the same thing can be done with tree rings. Those are items whose age can be independently determined by simple counting. This both calibrates and validates the radiocarbon method. And, the radiocarbon method by itself disproves both the young earth and global flood during historic times. If you don't like that, you better come up with something better than the not "repeatable" and "observable" nonsense.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Specific events in the past can usually be examined using a variety of techniques. In the example I gave we can date many pieces of shell and establish the age of a particular site. If somebody disagrees they can date more shells or other materials and see if they get different results.
And please stop using "proof" and "prove." As I posted before, those are not the criteria of science. Your use of those terms exposes you as a creationist and shows your lack of knowledge of the scientific method.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Don't be a troll, its very unbecoming.
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
If trees grew fast in the distant past, rings would not be any correlation or way to determine ages because trees growing in weeks and their rings could not be seasonal/yearly rings. And if there was a ladder to the moon we could climb up there, and wouldn't need rockets. The "what-ifs" creationists come up with are about as funny, and well supported by evidence as that ladder to the moon. But we understand the purpose of the "what-ifs." If any doubt, no matter how outlandish, can be raised against what science has learned then creationists can go oncontinue believing what science has disproved. All it takes is a simple, "what-if" and a lot of self-delusion. Creationists make the Queen in Alice look like a piker--she could only believe six impossible things before breakfast.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I think the big issue for rapid or slow evolution would be what nature it happened in. You would need to know that. We know what "nature" things happened in. If you disagree, you need to present scientific evidence to the contrary.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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That is NOT relevant unless it came about in this nature. Your circular reasoning so called dating collaboration is indeed circular. You asusme a same nature in the past for both, and then claim by so doing, the imaginary dates agree. The evidence for some "other nature" is totally lacking. To try and rely on this imaginary "other nature" to negate the parts of science that disprove bible-based claims is ridiculous.
You asusme a same nature in the past for both, and then claim by so doing, the imaginary dates agree. You assume an "other nature" in the past, then claim the dates don't agree. One approach is based on evidence, the other on religiously-based fantasy.
You should face the fact that the dates you use are faith based and not accepted as reality by YECs. For example, my opinion of when the flood was is about 70,000,000 years ago in your imagined science time. That equals about 4500 real actual years ago. So when you claim something is beyond YEC time remember you are only talking about faith based religious time that is not accepted. You have to place the flood 70 mya because all earlier placements for the flood have been disproved. Actually, all proposed dates for the "flood" have been disproved. As far as something "not accepted as reality by YECs" -- that's pretty funny. Why should scientists care a whit about what YECs believe and don't believe? YECs avoid evidence, logic, and the scientific method like vampires are supposed to avoid garlic. Most of the attention you get is because its amusing to poke holes in your fantasy.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2105 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
You responded to New Cat instead of me.
creation writes: Coyote writes: You have to place the flood 70 mya because all earlier placements for the flood have been disproved. Actually, all proposed dates for the "flood" have been disproved. Yes. That seems to be the best fit with the evidence. Why, you want to place it somewhere else? There is no evidence for a global flood at 70 mya or any other time. The global flood is a religious myth. The original date claimed was ca. 4,350 years ago but when the evidence showed there was no flood at that time claims were made for other times, all the way back to 70 mya and beyond. There is solid evidence that there was no global flood at any time. But creationists can't accept that their beliefs are wrong, so the flood keeps on moving around in time, now here and now there. And the ways they try and discount inconvenient dates from the past are particularly amusing, with magic vapor canopies and wildly fluctuation decay rates and all the rest. So, you don't like radiocarbon (C14) dating, eh? How about coming up with some evidence for a change as to why it doesn't work. I'm sure I'll find that amusing. By the way, I have done 707 radiocarbon dates, and have four more out and being processed currently, so I know a bit about the method.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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