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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD writes: No, you really don't. ... Except that we KNOW that exponential decay matches the evidence and linear decay doesn't. Actually for short lived radioisotopes you can plot decay events versus time (adding a watch to the Geiger counter) and you end up with an exponential curve ... ... or you can plot the relative amounts of, for example, 14C compared to 12C in samples of known age against their ages and you end up with small variations around an exponential curve, with the variations caused by variations in 14C in the atmosphere from the (known) variation in solar cosmic rays. This has been done for 50,000 years of samples of known age (such as tree rings and lake varves). Curiously, the comparison of 14C/12C levels in samples of known age is what the whole issue of 14C and tree rings (or varves) etcetera is about -- trying to determine the original levels of 14C/12C in the environment at those different ages and thus make 14C dating more accurate. A straight line fails to fit the data within the first 10% of the half-life.
... It is a thermodynamic calculation, ... Calculations are used based on well known physics and actual evidence -- see JonF post Message 380 for SOME of the examples available from actual published scientific research.
... and there is nothing to suggest isotopic concentrations don't have full lives. Except that it doesn't match the evidence and "full lives" is a non-sense term: every radioactive isotope would have an infinite "full life" by definition ... or is your understanding of this even more incredibly uninformed (counter-informed?) than your other issues? Can you tell me what a tree ring is? Just wondering. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I think it has more to do with bodily processes, ... Another amusing fantasy.
... but I am thinking I confused myself about results from corpses and wood. And more than likely confused about the purpose of 14C dating of corpses (or other organic matter) and the purpose of 14C dating wood (tree rings used to calibrate the 14C process). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Coyote writes: Stick around. This is a good place to learn things. Ahmen, indeed. Indeed ... IF one wants to learn ... and is willing to change their mind when presented with new (to them), more accurate information. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This post is in answer to the post (mid=740956) by zaius137 on Question About the Universe.
RAZD is great, but the assumption is that one ring equals one year (not certain) and dendrochronology also needs a accurate count of ring somewhat debatable. And I'll be happy to debate it on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 (ie -- here)
Curiously, I don't think that site supports what you think it does ...
quote: Bold added. So thanks, I'll be happy to add them to my list of references. AND I have other evidence that shows how accurate tree-ring counting is. See also the evidence that Lake Suigetsu varves accurately record annual layer events and that gets back to the limits of 14C dating. Then there are ice layers ... Such fun. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi OS and welcome to the fray
... But the Geiger counter seems to rule tree ring dating. ... Not sure what you mean here. 14C dating is not done with a Geiger counter, but with much more precise instruments: Radiocarbon Date calculation
quote: As you can see there is less 14C (green) in the sample of unknown age than in the standard sample (blue).
... Most trees don't grow new rings. They have them at once and they become distinct and spread with age. I'm sorry, but this is patiently false information,and whoever told you this was providing you with false information. The first growth (sprouting) of a tree occurs with pith and it does not contain any rings at all. This is retained in the trunk as a pith center around which the rings form as the tree grows. Please note that this can be -- and has been -- tested: you can take a core sample from a tree and then come back 5 or 10 years later and take another core. What you will find is that the rings in the original core are still the same width in the later core, and that the later core has new additional rings at the outer perimeter, normally one for each year that has passed since the first core. The fact that thousands of scientists have for hundreds of years used this information to measure ages of timbers used in constructions should be evidence enough that what you said would be impossible to have occurred as it would not be possible to use such a growth pattern for such measurements. You can also test this by cutting through the bark and the cambium layer ...
quote: quote: Briefly speaking the cambium layer is where the growth occurs in trees, it lies between the bark (the outer parts being dead cells) and the wood interior (also dead cells). Each year this layer adds new growth around the outside of the deadwood core, which then dies before the next layer is added outside it.
If you cut the bark and cambium layer off in a ring around a tree trunk the tree will die, and if you take off just the dead bark outside, the bark will be repaired. This proves that the growth occurs in the cambium layer.
Message 443: You always keep track of the date when you pull something from a tree. The results don't always represent tree ring growth. Again this sounds confused, and is likely due to misinformation on your end.
Let me guess, you measure every ring as it expands too. ... Again, the rings don't expand after they have died, only the new ring that is forming is where there is growth, and this ring is not used in dendrochronology measurements because it is incomplete.
... It is interesting to me how paper seems to date better than corpses. Can you provide references to this? I can think of several reasons for this to occur, however to best understand your argument I would need to see its source.
Message 450: Capt Stormfield writes: They don't, because the amount rings of the tree is meaningless to carbon-14 dating. You pretend to have studied this on a cell level. All rings of the tree tend to get bigger with age. How do the trees manage to know in advance how old they are going to get? Actually there are thousands of scientists you have actually studied this on the actual cell level, and curiously they came to the conclusion that tree rings do not expand with age because the wood core is composed of dead cells. If you are going to attempt to invalidate 14C dating then you need to use actual valid information. Can you please provide the source of your misinformation? What tests have you done to validate your claims? Inquiring minds want to know. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Why didn't you notice how the rings in the middle are getting bigger? Because they don't? Do you have anything other than your assertions for evidence they do?
Did you ever notice that I don't respond to much? ?... Nope, I assume most people spend time doing other things, some even doing research and thinking about how things really work.
... Usually, when you post to me, it is unworthy. How do you judge unworthiness? What is your way to measure of reality? I'm curious. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... Tree rings are not all produced one per year; and they aren't very distinct in small trees. ... Which is all neither here nor there. Some tree species do not produce distinct tree rings because their ecology doesn't change sufficiently to affect tree growth. Curiously, many tree species are very good at producing rings, and these are the species used for tree ring chronologies. Small (young) trees are not used in chronologies. So the impact of your assertions on the science of tree ring chronologies is zero.
It is obvious radiocarbon dating is not based on it. Of course, it is stunningly obvious that radiocarbon dating is not based on tree ring chronologies, as it is based on the radioactive decay of 14C, and it is based on the fact that living organisms take up 14C directly from the atmosphere (plants) or from what they eat (plants). It is also rather obvious that the amount of 14C in the atmosphere is replenished by the formation of new 14C from 14N by cosmic rays (I can give you references if you want to learn about this). It is also obvious that the amount of 14C in the atmosphere varies from year to year depending on the amount of cosmic ray bombardment. AND it is obvious that all radioactive materials decay along an exponential curve, and that the parameters of the decay are dependent on the half-life of the radioactive material, because this is observed fact. As you can see, none of that involves tree rings. With or without tree rings we would have valid 14C dates on organic artifacts that got their initial carbon from the atmosphere, with the proportion of 14C in the total carbon for that year of consumption. What the tree rings do, is allow us to correct the age calculations for the variations in atmospheric 14C at the year of consumption by using the correlation of the amount of 14C in the tree rings to the tree ring age:
THE question for you to answer is how this correlation could have so little scatter in the data if either 14C measurements or tree ring measurements were faulty. ie IF your assertions regarding tree rings is true THEN how do you explain the correlation? Please note that the curve includes data from several dendrochronologies which all just happen to aligned in the same relationships -- when one would expect different results from different chronologies based on your assertions. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... Radioactivity decreases evenly as you go down the earth's crust? Radioactivity decreases along exponential gradientss as you go to older and older rocks\etc that contain radioactive materials that aren't being replenished from other sources (ie - produced by decay of other materials). But your problem is not to punch holes into the methodologies, but to explain the correlations -- why different systems arrive at similar dates. So far no correlations have been explained by you. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It does not explain how Lambda is measured with nuclear spectroscopy. Possibly because this is the first you have mentioned anything about measuring λ of radioactive materials ... Curiously most such determinations are so old that they pre-date internet documents, but some additional refinements of older dates are available. For example:
Half-life of 230Th quote: and
Precision Measurement of Half-Lives and Specific Activities of 235U and 238U quote: If you want copies of these papers (or of any journal articles that require subscriptions) there are people here who have access and that can provide them if asked. One of the ways to find these papers is to look at the references of other papers\articles. For instance: Carbon-14 - Wikipedia
quote: Using google scholar you can find:
Half-life of radiocarbon quote: Please note that it is still standard practice to report 14C ages based on the Libby value of 5568 years, so that corrections of old dates by correlation to the calibration curves that have been developed (from tree rings, lake varves, and other sources) can be used consistently (without risking double corrections). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... You are the participant here who seems to be a bit out at sea. For what it is worth, I think english is a second language for OS, with some resulting difficulty expressing concepts, but also handicapped by not knowing\understanding what questions to ask, due to gaps in education, but doesn't realize it. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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To address this issue of correlations, and to bring this issue to the fore, this topic starts with ones that have direct methods of counting ages due to annual layers, how those annual layers validate each other and how several radiometric methods enter into the mix -- correlations not just with age but with climate and certain known instances that occurred in the past and which show up in these records just where they should be. The challenge for the creationist is not just to describe how a single method can be wrong, but how they can all be wrong at the same time and yet produce identical results - when the errors in different systems should produce different random results. So creation, care to take a crack at it? Start with Message 1 for the ground rules of this thread, then proceed to the dendrochronology section:
Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Welcome to the fray Micah8294,
in your proposed thread Some questions for atheists... you ask
2. how do evolutionists overcome the issues about the age of the earth (i'm sure you've heard the arguments) This thread (written in 2007) is about the many ways that we determine age from objective empirical evidence, starting with simple system where layers can be counted. Please read Message 1 and Message 2 to get started. You can see a proposed newer version at The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1). This new thread would update and add information that has become available since 2007, when this thread was written. If you are interested in debate on this newer thread (you won't be able to reply to that thread until it is promoted), please message me or ADMIN. Enjoy
... as you are new here, some posting tips: type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy and you can type [qs=RAZD]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
RAZD writes: quotes are easy or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote: also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window. For other formatting tips see Posting TipsFor a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
' time' emailed me with the link to his reply on Cross forum evolution debate thread on the website:
So this is to debate with 'time' on two different forums, 'time' on the link above, and me here.
The moderation on the other forum I find unacceptable and biased, so there is no way I would or could discuss anything there. And I'm not sure I can not be banned on his site:
quote: So I have registered with CARM in order to read the posts and make minor comments, but I don't trust them to let me post in full without banning me permanently and without notice. So here we are...
time on CARM writes: Cross forum evolution debate thread01-30-17, 02:23 PM I was asked to comment on some issues contained in a post on another forum. Time permitting I plan to briefly address the dozen or so points raised there. I see no need for the thread originator to post here, but I will give them the link in case they feel a need to do so. Here is the link to the thread and post. http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=6288 I notice all of the points are solidly based on the same belief. A belief in a same state past.So really all that needs to be done here is to illustrate how all the points are actually religion, and not knowledge based or any real science. I would point out that in his summation on 'the bottom line' he says this "All these methods show the same pattern of climatological changes for the periods of overlap..." Now that point has no real validity when we consider that the actual issue is not the overlapping climate changes, but the length of time this took. Yes, a pattern of changes exists. Now the question is, in what way does that support the old age, no God, no flood so called sciences belief system any more than a creation friendly, bible friendly approach? The moderation on the other forum I find unacceptable and biased, so there is no way I would or could discuss anything there. So here we are... I notice all of the points are solidly based on the same belief. A belief in a same state past.So really all that needs to be done here is to illustrate how all the points are actually religion, and not knowledge based or any real science. Always amusing when creationists try to turn science into religion. Not a belief, but a basic hypothesis of all science: that in the absence of any cause or reason to think otherwise, it is most rational to think that the universal laws that govern the behavior of things act in the past in a manner consistent with the way we observe them behaving today. As a scientific hypothesis it is based on evidence that we can observe for the consistency of behavior, and as long as those tests do not refute the hypothesis or demonstrate severe anomalies we can have confidence that this is the best approximation we have to date for how things work. This denial of the science is similar to his arguments about whether we can know time outside the solar system, and trying to mess time up doesn't make the evidence go away, nor does it explain the consilience in results obtained.
I would point out that in his summation on 'the bottom line' he says this "All these methods show the same pattern of climatological changes for the periods of overlap..." This is from Message 12 so he has skipped over all the evidence and not tried to refute a single point. Not a stellar start. In terms of clarity and to provide the latest information on these methods I will be replying on a news thread, as it appears that 'time' may not stay on topic or address the issues here. So I plan to post my replies on Cross forum evolution debate on Age of the Earth, let him know and then copy his replies there and continue. If that thread is promoted, then others will be able to participate. Enjoy ps - with 483 posts and little recent activity I think it is time to close this thread and move to The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1) with updates and new information. Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : time to close this oneby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In Message 121 of the Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. thread, Dredge trys to shame/guilt-trip herebedragons with this comment:
As a theistic evolutionist, you seem blissfully unaware that millions of years of evolution is incompatible with Scripture - and I'm not just talking about the first chapter of Genesis. But this is off-topic so that's all I'll say on the matter here. Dredge seems to be blissfully unaware that millions of years of evolution is just part of reality, and that any opinions or interpretations of Scripture etc that are incompatible with reality are just delusional. See #3:
So let's start with Message 1 and see where reality leads us.
We see many creationists saying that dating methods are not accurate and are prone to errors. The problem is that these methods all correlate with each other in many rather astounding ways, given that they are based on very different mechanisms. To address this issue of correlations, and to bring this issue to the fore, this topic starts with ones that have direct methods of counting ages due to annual layers, how those annual layers validate each other and how several radiometric methods enter into the mix -- correlations not just with age but with climate and certain known instances that occurred in the past and which show up in these records just where they should be. The challenge for the creationist is not just to describe how a single method can be wrong, but how they can all be wrong at the same time and yet produce identical results - when the errors in different systems should produce different random results. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... Furthermore, the dating was done in 6 different laboratories and the materials were collected from 5 different locations in the Western Hemisphere. And yet the results are the same within analytical error. If radiometric dating didn’t work then such beautifully consistent results would not be possible. That would be a good talking point between The Devil's Hole, Message 9 and Talking Coral Heads, Message 10 in my next version - where I plan to concentrate even more on the consilience of results from different methods and sets of data. (see The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1) in Proposed New Topics) by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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