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Author | Topic: You Will Always Have the Poor | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
quote: What is the purpose of this verse? It is hard to reconcile it with Jesus' general position of placing the poor on the top of the list of priorities. There's an obvious conflict in this scene of course. Jesus has to be anointed. But many readers might ask "why not sell the oil and give the money to the poor like Jesus suggests the rich man do in Mt 19:21?" And, indeed, the disciples foil out that very question. Is the verse in question the only answer the Gospel authors could think of or does it have some deeper meaning? And what does it say of the Jesus character?Love your enemies!
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread copied here from the You Will Always Have the Poor thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It appears to me that its simple logic. There will always be poor people and we can feed them anytime we dare. Jesus is simply telling Judas...who hoarded the valuables...to quit whining about spent money.
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Jon Inactive Member
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There will always be poor people and we can feed them anytime we dare. Like after they've already starved to death?
Jesus is simply telling Judas...who hoarded the valuables...to quit whining about spent money. Who said anything about Judas? And no one is whining about "spent money". The complaint from the disciples is that the ointment could have been sold and the money given to the poor just like Jesus preached earlier. Jesus seems to go against his earlier teaching to excuse the woman's exaltation of him, which paints Jesus as a little more selfish than usual. What's the point of this?Love your enemies!
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Isn't this about the same as "don't look a gift horse in the mouth".
The woman was generous and well intentioned. This was the wrong time to criticize her.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Jon Inactive Member |
Isn't this about the same as "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". The woman was generous and well intentioned. This was the wrong time to criticize her. That explains "Why do you trouble the woman? She has performed a good service for me.", but it doesn't really explain Jesus' comment about the poor.Love your enemies!
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Then I think you are reading too much into it.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Jon Inactive Member |
But am I?
The statement is rather unusual for Jesus. It's repeated in three gospels and has held some good weight in circles of Christians who believe it can be used to relieve them of the burdensome charge of helping the poor:
quote: And if you do a Google search for this phrase, you will find countless websites attempting to explain this scene to a population of Christians hellbent on excusing themselves from the daunting responsibility of being Christians. That Christians might interpret these words as divine support for laziness should be no surprise; such an interpretation apparently developed pretty quickly in the gospel communities. In Mark, the first written telling of the story, the contradiction between Jesus' words at the anointing and his usual teachings is tempered with a follow-up reminder that the poor still need help:
quote: In Matthew this reminder gets dropped. By the time the story is told in John, the ethical situation of the whole scene has changed with Judas asking the question not for the sake of the poor but because he wants to fatten his own wallet:
quote: The scene arguably no longer has anything to do with the disciples' genuine concern for the poor, and so any controversy or perceived disagreement originally present in the scene has been eliminated with John's redaction. Since the gospel writers were so keen on lessening the reference to Christian duty, it's no surprise the passage got 'upgraded' at every turn. What is a surprise is that the whole conversation takes place at all. It seems as though our bumbling disciples finally think they've gotten one right only to see a 180 from their holy friend and be left further confused than before. On this note, and this goes to the faith/belief side of the coin, I think it's worth a good discussion as to:
Love your enemies!
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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The statement is rather unusual for Jesus.
That's hard to say. Nobody was taking notes of everything said. What we have, instead, is a somewhat mythologized account. It's more a record of what the early believers thought important.
... and has held some good weight in circles of Christians who believe it can be used to relieve them of the burdensome charge of helping the poor That's literalism for you. The literalist ignores the clear intentions, but instead looks for wording that can read as giving the permission to do what they really want to do anyway even though it is contrary to the main teachings. We recently saw something similar among orthodox Jews:
KosherSwitch: A Loophole for Orthodox Jews Who Think They Can’t Turn Electricity On/Off on the Sabbath. Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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the contradiction between Jesus' words at the anointing and his usual teachings I don't think its contradictory. Jesus preached to help the poor, but I don't recall Him every saying that the goal was to eliminate their existence. That's just practical.
It seems as though our bumbling disciples finally think they've gotten one right only to see a 180 from their holy friend and be left further confused than before. I think the scene has more to do with glorifying God than it does with the poor, with a reminder that Jesus is God. The lesson I see there is that, while we are charged to help the poor, that doesn't mean that you have to stop adoring God in the process. Or, even though helping the poor is an important service, you don't have to stop all the other good things you are doing to focus solely on that.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Jesus preached to help the poor, but I don't recall Him every saying that the goal was to eliminate their existence. That seems like a copout.
I think the scene has more to do with glorifying God than it does with the poor, with a reminder that Jesus is God. Jesus isn't God in Mark, so I'm not sure how much that interpretation can explain the scene as a whole.Love your enemies!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Is the verse in question the only answer the Gospel authors could think of or does it have some deeper meaning? In theory, the Gospel authors were not free to make stuff up. I think the issue here is that Jesus saw through the disciples pretense to be caring about the poor. The disciples complaint could be applied to any expenditure. What the complaining disciples were really disturbed by was Jesus relationship with the woman. In actuality, was Jesus going to take the woman's oil and give it to the poor? Could the disciples do that? Was there any indication that the woman had taken away any money earmarked for the poor? Did the disciples not have resources that they could have spent on the poor?
general position of placing the poor on the top of the list of priorities. The poor were not at the top of the list of priorities. What gave you that idea?Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Jesus preached to help the poor, but I don't recall Him every saying that the goal was to eliminate their existence.
That seems like a copout. What do you mean?
I think the scene has more to do with glorifying God than it does with the poor, with a reminder that Jesus is God. Jesus isn't God in Mark, Huh?
so I'm not sure how much that interpretation can explain the scene as a whole. Jesus was preparing to be crucified as the Messiah. The woman was glorifying Him. The disciples said "What about the poor?" and Jesus replied, "don't worry about them now, this is important too". You've read to much into the "they'll always be here part" and missed the other part of the scene that was more important.
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Jon Inactive Member |
That's hard to say. Nobody was taking notes of everything said. What we have, instead, is a somewhat mythologized account. It's more a record of what the early believers thought important. Sure. But we still have a complex Jesus character worth discussing. Whether the things reported are true or not doesn't take away our power to discuss the way the scenes fit into the overall narrative and accompanying belief system.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
The poor were not at the top of the list of priorities. What gave you that idea? What exactly do you think topped his list?Love your enemies!
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