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Author Topic:   You Will Always Have the Poor
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 77 (756229)
04-16-2015 7:05 PM


quote:
Matthew 26:6—13 (NRSV):
Now while Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very costly ointment, and she poured it on his head as he sat at the table. But when the disciples saw it, they were angry and said, 'Why this waste? For this ointment could have been sold for a large sum, and the money given to the poor.' But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, 'Why do you trouble the woman? She has performed a good service for me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me. By pouring this ointment on my body she has prepared me for burial. Truly I tell you, wherever this good news is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told in remembrance of her.'
What is the purpose of this verse?
It is hard to reconcile it with Jesus' general position of placing the poor on the top of the list of priorities.
There's an obvious conflict in this scene of course. Jesus has to be anointed. But many readers might ask "why not sell the oil and give the money to the poor like Jesus suggests the rich man do in Mt 19:21?" And, indeed, the disciples foil out that very question.
Is the verse in question the only answer the Gospel authors could think of or does it have some deeper meaning?
And what does it say of the Jesus character?

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-16-2015 7:14 PM Jon has replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 04-16-2015 7:30 PM Jon has replied
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 11:13 AM Jon has replied
 Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-01-2016 5:22 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 77 (756233)
04-16-2015 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-16-2015 7:14 PM


Re: Po Fo Sho
There will always be poor people and we can feed them anytime we dare.
Like after they've already starved to death?
Jesus is simply telling Judas...who hoarded the valuables...to quit whining about spent money.
Who said anything about Judas? And no one is whining about "spent money". The complaint from the disciples is that the ointment could have been sold and the money given to the poor just like Jesus preached earlier.
Jesus seems to go against his earlier teaching to excuse the woman's exaltation of him, which paints Jesus as a little more selfish than usual.
What's the point of this?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-16-2015 7:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 77 (756249)
04-16-2015 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
04-16-2015 7:30 PM


Isn't this about the same as "don't look a gift horse in the mouth".
The woman was generous and well intentioned. This was the wrong time to criticize her.
That explains "Why do you trouble the woman? She has performed a good service for me.", but it doesn't really explain Jesus' comment about the poor.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 04-16-2015 7:30 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 04-17-2015 12:42 AM Jon has replied
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-06-2015 6:09 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 77 (756260)
04-17-2015 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
04-17-2015 12:42 AM


You Will Always Have the Poor
But am I?
The statement is rather unusual for Jesus. It's repeated in three gospels and has held some good weight in circles of Christians who believe it can be used to relieve them of the burdensome charge of helping the poor:
quote:
"Rick Perry, Hungry for Redemption, Says He's a 'Substantially Different' Candidate" from The Washington Post:
In the Post interview, he was asked about the growing gap between rich and poor in Texas, which has had strong job growth over the past decade but also has lagged in services for the underprivileged.
"Biblically, the poor are always going to be with us in some form or fashion," he said. ...
Perry acknowledged that the richest Texans have experienced the greatest amount of earnings growth, but dismissed the notion that income inequality is a problem in the state, saying, "We don’t grapple with that here."
And if you do a Google search for this phrase, you will find countless websites attempting to explain this scene to a population of Christians hellbent on excusing themselves from the daunting responsibility of being Christians.
That Christians might interpret these words as divine support for laziness should be no surprise; such an interpretation apparently developed pretty quickly in the gospel communities.
In Mark, the first written telling of the story, the contradiction between Jesus' words at the anointing and his usual teachings is tempered with a follow-up reminder that the poor still need help:
quote:
Mark 14:6—7 (NRSV):
But Jesus said, 'Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has performed a good service for me. For you always have the poor with you, and you can show kindness to them whenever you wish; but you will not always have me.
In Matthew this reminder gets dropped.
By the time the story is told in John, the ethical situation of the whole scene has changed with Judas asking the question not for the sake of the poor but because he wants to fatten his own wallet:
quote:
John 12:1—8 (NRSV):
Six days before the Passover Jesus came to Bethany, the home of Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. There they gave a dinner for him. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those at the table with him. Mary took a pound of costly perfume made of pure nard, anointed Jesus' feet, and wiped them with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was about to betray him), said, 'Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?' (He said this not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief; he kept the common purse and used to steal what was put into it.) Jesus said, 'Leave her alone. She bought it so that she might keep it for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.'
The scene arguably no longer has anything to do with the disciples' genuine concern for the poor, and so any controversy or perceived disagreement originally present in the scene has been eliminated with John's redaction.
Since the gospel writers were so keen on lessening the reference to Christian duty, it's no surprise the passage got 'upgraded' at every turn. What is a surprise is that the whole conversation takes place at all. It seems as though our bumbling disciples finally think they've gotten one right only to see a 180 from their holy friend and be left further confused than before.
On this note, and this goes to the faith/belief side of the coin, I think it's worth a good discussion as to:
  1. why the disciples chime in when they could have been kept silent and eliminated the need for any awkwardness, and
  2. what this scene says about the Jesus character and his potentially conflicted relationship to the poor.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 04-17-2015 12:42 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by nwr, posted 04-17-2015 8:21 AM Jon has replied
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 9:59 AM Jon has replied
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:03 PM Jon has replied
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 04-18-2015 12:36 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 77 (756270)
04-17-2015 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 9:59 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Jesus preached to help the poor, but I don't recall Him every saying that the goal was to eliminate their existence.
That seems like a copout.
I think the scene has more to do with glorifying God than it does with the poor, with a reminder that Jesus is God.
Jesus isn't God in Mark, so I'm not sure how much that interpretation can explain the scene as a whole.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 9:59 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 11:32 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 77 (756274)
04-17-2015 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by nwr
04-17-2015 8:21 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
That's hard to say. Nobody was taking notes of everything said. What we have, instead, is a somewhat mythologized account. It's more a record of what the early believers thought important.
Sure. But we still have a complex Jesus character worth discussing.
Whether the things reported are true or not doesn't take away our power to discuss the way the scenes fit into the overall narrative and accompanying belief system.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by nwr, posted 04-17-2015 8:21 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by nwr, posted 04-17-2015 11:54 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 77 (756275)
04-17-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 11:13 AM


The poor were not at the top of the list of priorities. What gave you that idea?
What exactly do you think topped his list?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 11:13 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:08 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 77 (756279)
04-17-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 11:32 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
The disciples said "What about the poor?" and Jesus replied, "don't worry about them now, this is important too".
What do you suppose Matthew's purpose was in removing Mark's "you can show kindness to them whenever you wish" line?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 11:32 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 12:14 PM Jon has replied
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:15 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 77 (756282)
04-17-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
04-17-2015 12:03 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
And if you do a Google search for this phrase, you will find countless websites attempting to explain this scene to a population of Christians hellbent on excusing themselves from the daunting responsibility of being Christians.
That's horrible slander. Prove it.
Did you bother doing the Google search, Faith?
"The Poor You Will Always Have:" It's Not A Prediction!
That's one; I'll leave you to find the others on your own.
You might be interested in this:
I'm not.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:17 PM Jon has replied
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:29 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 77 (756285)
04-17-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 12:14 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
To make it more about Jesus and less about the poor.
But the author has no real reason to do that; by the time he begins writing Jesus has been long dead.
The only way Matthew's audience could make it more about Jesus and less about the poor would be to spend more time and/or money on their secretive worshiping and less on alleviating poverty.
By removing the reminder that the poor will still need to be helped, Matthew makes Jesus' charge to focus on him over the poor for that one night an eternal commandment.
Sounds like a good excuse for getting new seats in the church while the folks on the street sleep in boxes.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 12:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 12:40 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 77 (756286)
04-17-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
04-17-2015 12:17 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Did you miss the link to the Washington Post article on Rick Perry?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:33 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 77 (756287)
04-17-2015 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 12:15 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
From where do you think Matthew sourced this particular scene?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:41 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 77 (756295)
04-17-2015 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 12:40 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
How does it make it an eternal commandment?
Mark's Jesus reminds the disciples that after the coming events, they will still need to help the poor.
Matthew's Jesus does not remind the disciples of this and so Jesus never leads center stage.
Sounds to me like you're trying to make it that way.
Not at all. I'm pointing out that it is a possible way to interpret Matthew's omission.
That this scene was and has been perplexing to Christians is supported by the discussion Christians have around the issue and the fact that early gospel writers saw it necessary to edit this story in each of their retellings.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:10 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 77 (756297)
04-17-2015 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 12:29 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
In fact, the Catholic Church is urging that we not interpret Jesus words in exactly the way that you are doing in the OP.
I have no favored interpretation. But there is a discussion among Christians surrounding this and it's probably because folks realize the scene causes some difficulty with Jesus' general attitude toward the poor.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:29 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:17 PM Jon has replied
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 4:23 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 77 (756298)
04-17-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 12:41 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
That still doesn't answer the question.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:41 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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