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Author Topic:   You Will Always Have the Poor
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 77 (756301)
04-17-2015 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:10 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I think you are missing my point.
Matthew and John have made changes to the scene. Those changes alter the meaning of the story.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 77 (756302)
04-17-2015 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:17 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
The problem is that it can be used by people as support for their already held position of just not feeling like helping the poor that much.
Okay. And aside from dismissing the whole thing, what can be said to counter those interpretations?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:41 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 77 (756305)
04-17-2015 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:41 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
They've changed some of the details, but those don't alter the meaning.
Then what's the purpose of the changes?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:47 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 77 (756307)
04-17-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 3:47 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I'm not convinced they were on purpose.
All that stuff about Judas was just John's pen slipping?
Don't be ridiculous. The changes were intentional.
Assuming they were, John's just provides additional details...
Why did John feel those details were necessary?
Matthew's seems to be trying to take the focus off of the poor.
Okay. And why did Matthew want to take away that focus? Do you, personally, see anything wrong with Mark's account? Do you feel either Matthew's or John's versions to be improvements?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 3:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 77 (756310)
04-17-2015 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 4:23 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
And while you claim to have no favored interpretation, the one you are using for this thread is one that none of the posters here who claim to be Christians accept as correct. It is certainly possible to read the truth from Matthew's words. Why are you insisting that the writer actually meant something else?
You are mistaking me asking questions with me having a hard-and-fast opinion on this matter.
It is, in fact, the Gospel according to Matthew, that is of the most assistance when chiding dispensationalists and no works people who claim to have faith about their duty to serve the poor. There is no reason to assume that in this one instance Matthew offers an excuse to those same lay abouts.
That makes Matthew's omission all the more strange, don't you think?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 4:23 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-17-2015 6:56 PM Jon has replied
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 4:07 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 77 (756313)
04-17-2015 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 6:56 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Also, what other sources did he have besides Mark? Could he have reason to suspect it should have been omitted?
There's the rub!
If the passage has had such a confused reception why is it in the gospels to begin with? Luke did okay without it. And perhaps "you can help them whenever you want" was Mark's unique way of addressing the potential misuse of the passage. Matthew, having reason to believe the phrase an invention by Mark to neutralize the passage, removes it as inauthentic.
But then he never neutralizes the matter. And so we have to again ask ourselves why he leaves the issue open.
I can't think of any reason other than to make some sort of point; what that point might be, given the rest of the gospel's emphasis on helping the poor, is completely beyond me.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 77 (756323)
04-18-2015 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
04-18-2015 4:07 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
No. I am confusing your dismissal of alternative explanations fairly close to out of hand as you liking your position best.
In that case you are confusing me asking questions with me dismissing alternative explanations.
As I have expressed many times in these forums, what I find strange is attempts to parse the words in the Bible in a way that creates an issue where none exists.
I agree; yet many folks do just that.
It is completely unlikely that Matthew's omission has anything like the meaning you suggest.
And how do you figure?
If one follows the changes from the earliest gospel to the latest, a clear pattern develops of removing responsibilities from the believers, lessening their workloads, and often bumping up their rewards.
For some reason you think it absolutely impossible that Matthew's omission here could be a part of this trend.
As I read Matthew, I find the meaning quite clear, but twistable.
Indeed; but Mark's account is not so easily twisted.
Why do you think Matthew removed that important phrase to write a 'twistable' story when retaining it would have left matters undebatable?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 4:07 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 04-18-2015 12:40 PM Jon has replied
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 4:32 PM Jon has replied
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 04-18-2015 5:47 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 77 (756334)
04-18-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
04-18-2015 12:40 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Okay...
Why do you think Matthew removed that important phrase to write a 'twistable' story when retaining it would have left matters no more or less debatable than Mark's account?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 04-18-2015 12:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 4:25 PM Jon has replied
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 04-20-2015 11:45 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 77 (756349)
04-18-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
04-18-2015 4:25 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Why don't you trace through the sources that Matthew and Mark used and show us what Matthew missed?
This really isn't the thread for that.
If you want to catch up on the relevant theories, you can check out the Wikipedia page on the synoptic problem.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 4:25 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 9:37 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 77 (756351)
04-18-2015 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
04-18-2015 4:32 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I am also taking your loading of questions, "Why did Matthew omit this", as having already decided that Matthew did not report accurately what happened.
Who's talking about accurate reporting of what happened?
We have three different stories; we can judge them on their own and on how they relate to one another.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 4:32 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 12:05 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 77 (756362)
04-18-2015 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
04-18-2015 9:37 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
What did Jesus actually say?
If you want to engage in the fruitless search for Jesus' actual words, have at it.
I'm not going to waste my time on that kind of nonsense.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 9:37 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 12:02 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 77 (756379)
04-19-2015 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 12:05 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
You are Jon. When you speak of omissions and a confusing message, those are questions involve accuracy of Matthew's message.
No, they are questions involving the difference between Matthew's account and Mark's.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 12:05 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:11 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 77 (756380)
04-19-2015 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 12:02 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Your other questions were also nonsense.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 12:02 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:09 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 77 (756394)
04-19-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 2:11 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
And the point is that you assume Mark is accurate and assert that Matthew has made an omission.
Is your head full of rocks?
How many times do I have to tell you that I don't care about 'accuracy' or what 'actually' happened?
I'm challenging your call on that point, and your answer seems to be that addressing the question is off topic.
Well, I don't assume what you think I assume, so your challenge is empty.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:11 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:41 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 77 (756402)
04-19-2015 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 2:41 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Any time you raise a question about the motive for the author leaving something out, the question of what 'actually happened' is inherent in your question.
No it isn't.
Your position inherently makes a statement about what actually happened, or what the author's sources say happened.
No it doesn't.
It's not my fault if your thread is stupid.
Then stop wasting my time; jeesh.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:41 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 04-20-2015 9:00 AM Jon has replied

  
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