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Author Topic:   Corporate Interests & Democracy's Death Knell
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1411 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 46 of 51 (758959)
06-06-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
06-06-2015 11:50 AM


If there is a systemic malfunction, it's that the American people have abandoned much of their role in democracy, trusting their interests to capitalism: "What's good for business is good for me." That isn't democracy breaking down; it's just failure to use democracy.
I agree. But to be fair, the Occupy movement did try to raise awareness of how the neoliberal scheme has gradually taken democracy out of the hands of the populace and made the government an ATM for high finance wheeler-dealers. Crowdsourcing social change didn't work, but it was a good reminder of how broken our system still is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 06-06-2015 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 51 (758960)
06-06-2015 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by MrHambre
06-06-2015 1:21 PM


MrHambre writes:
But to be fair, the Occupy movement did try to raise awareness of how the neoliberal scheme has gradually taken democracy out of the hands of the populace and made the government an ATM for high finance wheeler-dealers.
Again I would say that nothing was "taken"; rather it was freely given. Maybe it can be taken back, maybe not. I just think it's premature to call a setback a "death knell".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by MrHambre, posted 06-06-2015 1:21 PM MrHambre has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 51 (758982)
06-06-2015 6:32 PM


Local Democracy is Democracy
As if one pipeline polluting countless amounts of pristine waters isn't enough to satisfy our nation's appetite for drama, we're ready to build another, completely ignoring any lessons from before along with the desires of the people living next to the proposed line:
quote:
"State Regulators Back Controversial Northern Minnesota Oil Pipeline" from MPR:
State regulators on Friday approved the proposed Sandpiper pipeline, a controversial project designed to run 225,000 barrels per day of North Dakota crude oil across Minnesota.
...
Friends of the Headwaters, the group that proposed several alternatives to the pipeline, said the commission's decision only explores one slightly different route than what the company proposed, and that the modified route still goes through the Mississippi River headwaters.
"The commission had an opportunity to give the public a real voice in the location of pipelines in Minnesota," said Kathryn Hoffman, the group's attorney. "Instead they decided that the only voice that counts is that of the company's."
Article 6 of the Inter-American Democratic Charter says:
quote:
Article 6 of Inter-American Democratic Charter:
It is the right and responsibility of all citizens to participate in decisions relating to their own development. This is also a necessary condition for the full and effective exercise of democracy. Promoting and fostering diverse forms of participation strengthens democracy.
The Texas ban on fracking bans and Minnesota's decision to allow shoddy pipelines to run through territory against the wishes of those living in the territory effectively remove the people potentially affected by the decisions from the decision making process.
quote:
"White Earth Voices Concerns about Sandpiper: State Commission to Deliberate on Pipeline Friday in St. Paul" from the Bemidji Pioneer:
"The PUC hearings are always in the city," Michael Dahl, a White Earth community organizer said. "They're not up where the people that live on the pipeline are. They’re not dealing with the people that it's actually going to affect."
Sound familiar?
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
Anyway, at least somebody's cheering at seeing the hearse roll by:
quote:
"Minnesota PUC Approves Enbridge's Sandpiper Pipeline but Didn't Settle Its Route" from the Star Tribune:
"We appreciate the Public Utility Commission’s unanimous decision," said Enbridge spokeswoman Lorraine Little.
Of the Companies. By the Companies. For the Companies.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 51 (758987)
06-06-2015 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
06-06-2015 11:50 AM


Do "we" - meaning you - really know what the people's interests are?
"We" meaning the folks of Denton, Texas.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 06-06-2015 11:50 AM ringo has replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 51 (758991)
06-07-2015 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
06-06-2015 6:32 PM


Re: Local Democracy is Democracy
The Texas ban on fracking bans and Minnesota's decision to allow shoddy pipelines to run through territory against the wishes of those living in the territory effectively remove the people potentially affected by the decisions from the decision making process.
Not accurate. Instead what has happened is that something that the people want to be a local decision has been elevated to state politics. The entire state may have an interest in the tax revenue generated by fracking, so the entire state and not just the nearest local people get a say.
To change things you have to affect politics on a state level. There is no obvious reason why deciding things on the state level should be defined as undemocratic.
Some place within your state is going to be the site for handling the waste your state generates. Somebody is going to decide how much water everybody in the state gets to use out of some river that wanders from town to town. And the correct decision is not to let individual towns vote to hog all the water or to let everybody vote to ship the garbage everywhere but their own town.
I understand that the locals feel that only their votes should count, but fracking affects jobs in nearby counties and may affect the economy of the entire state which in turn affects how much money gets spent on educating everyone's kids and whether or not the state can afford to give poor people health care. Many people in the state, even those who live nowhere near the fracking sites have an interest.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 51 (759000)
06-07-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jon
06-06-2015 9:32 PM


Jon writes:
"We" meaning the folks of Denton, Texas.
The folks of Denton, Texas elected their local government as well as their state government and their federal government. What you have is a conflict of interest between different democratic institutions, not a breakdown in democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 06-06-2015 9:32 PM Jon has not replied

  
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