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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 211 of 375 (759659)
06-14-2015 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
06-13-2015 6:15 PM


Re: believe vs know
Jar writes:
Do you differentiate between believe and know?
Of course
How do you determine something is obviously mythological?
If you think I'm going to get into yet other endless and futile Monty Python "what do you mean by mean?", discussion you're wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 212 of 375 (759718)
06-14-2015 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Tangle
06-13-2015 6:09 PM


Tangle writes:
'm interested in the things we can actually know, not what we can fantasise about. I'm not searching for truth - I'm just getting along with what we know. I'm baffled by those that think they can know some further truth just by wanting something obviously mythological to be true.
I'm interested in things that I can know as well. However, there are some things that we can know objectively and some things that we believe subjectively. There are no doubt things that you believe that you can't know. You take the information available to you and form a conclusion.
Even in the case of your atheism you have taken the available information and formed a conclusion, but you can't know whether your conclusion is correct or not.
I assume that you hold a world view of one sort or another. It may be based on what's best for you or what's best for humanity and the world. That world view is presumably based on something that you believe to be true or none of it would matter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2015 6:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2015 3:18 AM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 213 of 375 (759719)
06-14-2015 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by mikechell
06-14-2015 12:23 AM


GDR writes:
'm interested in the things we can actually know, not what we can fantasise about. I'm not searching for truth - I'm just getting along with what we know. I'm baffled by those that think they can know some further truth just by wanting something obviously mythological to be true.
mikechell writes:
Well, it's my understanding that all the parts that "are tenets for behavior" something, are scripted by men under the guidance of god. But, I don't think any of it is god's word because I don't believe there is a god. I also believe that ALL organized religion is idolatry. And it is this very idolatry that corrupt "leaders" take advantage of to convince "followers" to commit acts of violence and savagery against others.
People have committed acts of violence and savagery for all sorts of reasons and it is always about the human quest for power which is a function of our pride. If you are going to build a following then you are going to need a cause on which to hang your hat. Sometimes it is with nationalism, sometimes it is that it will make you one of the survivors, sometimes it is for personal power and sometimes it is by bringing some god or another into it with or without a holy book.
However, I have never heard someone commit an atrocity because Jesus said to love your enemy, turn the other cheek, love others as you love yourself etc. Certainly there have been those who have misused the Bible to commit acts of violence and savagery but if the Bible hadn't been available they would have used some other justification.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 12:23 AM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 6:04 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 214 of 375 (759720)
06-14-2015 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
06-14-2015 2:40 AM


Faith writes:
Mike didn't say anything that suggests that he himself believes the Bible is the word of God. I cheered him for simply arguing that position.
I understand that Faith. We have agreed that we have very different views on how God intends us to understand and follow Biblical teaching. My point was that Mike was arguing against your views and not mine even though he disagrees with both of us. I only mentioned you cheering it in order to try and point that out to him.
Cheers

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 2:40 AM Faith has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 375 (759721)
06-14-2015 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by GDR
06-14-2015 5:52 PM


I also believe that ALL organized religion is idolatry. And it is this very idolatry that corrupt "leaders" take advantage of to convince "followers" to commit acts of violence and savagery against others.
Certainly there have been those who have misused the Bible to commit acts of violence and savagery but if the Bible hadn't been available they would have used some other justification.
I never said christianity, or any religion, is the ONLY reason people maim and kill other people. I just said that once someone starts using those religion's BOOKS ... they can twist the words any way they want. It becomes idolatry ... the book is all, and that leads to Inquisitions and Jihadist, etc. It's not the books themselves that cause the evil ... it's the ones who pervert the meanings in the books.
Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 5:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 6:17 PM mikechell has not replied
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:19 PM mikechell has not replied
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:34 PM mikechell has replied
 Message 219 by Jon, posted 06-14-2015 6:34 PM mikechell has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 216 of 375 (759722)
06-14-2015 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by mikechell
06-14-2015 6:04 PM


mikechell writes:
I never said christianity, or any religion, is the ONLY reason people maim and kill other people. I just said that once someone starts using those religion's BOOKS ... they can twist the words any way they want. It becomes idolatry ... the book is all, and that leads to Inquisitions and Jihadist, etc. It's not the books themselves that cause the evil ... it's the ones who pervert the meanings in the books.
Hey - I think we have an agreement. Preach it Brother.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 6:04 PM mikechell has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 217 of 375 (759724)
06-14-2015 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by mikechell
06-14-2015 6:04 PM


dup
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 6:04 PM mikechell has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 218 of 375 (759729)
06-14-2015 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by mikechell
06-14-2015 6:04 PM


Please please please stop attributing the Inquisition to "Christianity" or the Bible. The Inquisition murdered people for READING the Bible. When the RC Church reigned over European Christendom the Bible was allowed only to the priests, who read more of the pagan philosophers than the Bible anyway, and it could only be in Latin: those who translated it into the vernacular languages were top of the Inquisitor's execution list. Fifty million BIBLE BELIEVERS were murdered by the Inquisition. The Roman Church's commandeering of the title Christian is one of the biggest most evil lies ever perpetrated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 6:04 PM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Omnivorous, posted 06-14-2015 6:37 PM Faith has replied
 Message 222 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 10:51 PM Faith has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 375 (759730)
06-14-2015 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by mikechell
06-14-2015 6:04 PM


it's the ones who pervert the meanings in the books.
And what meanings are those?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 6:04 PM mikechell has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 220 of 375 (759732)
06-14-2015 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
06-14-2015 6:34 PM


Faith writes:
Fifty million BIBLE BELIEVERS were murdered by the Inquisition.
Poppycock.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:50 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 221 of 375 (759733)
06-14-2015 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Omnivorous
06-14-2015 6:37 PM


)Plus seventeen million Jews, Muslims, witches and sundry others who ran afoul of the Inquisition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Omnivorous, posted 06-14-2015 6:37 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 375 (759766)
06-14-2015 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
06-14-2015 6:34 PM


it's the ones who pervert the meanings in the books.
Jon wrote:
And what meanings are those?
Currently, those passages of the qur'an that are driving the Radical Islamist.
Faith wrote:
Fifty million BIBLE BELIEVERS were murdered by the Inquisition.
Plus seventeen million Jews, Muslims, witches and sundry others who ran afoul of the Inquisition.
The only numbers I can find are closer to 6000 people were actually executed during the 500+ years of the Inquisition. Fewer than 200,000 people were tried. Where are you getting your numbers, Faith???
Hitler didn't even get the numbers you say ... (and he was driven by religious fervor, too, by the way).
Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 11:05 PM mikechell has replied
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 11:13 PM mikechell has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 223 of 375 (759769)
06-14-2015 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by mikechell
06-14-2015 10:51 PM


The persecutions by the RCC are counted over 600 years, rather longer than Hitler's holocaust. It does depend on what you include in the figures. The Spanish Inquisition was only a small part of it. Whole communities of Bible believers such as the Waldensians were periodically massacred. And the numbers usually include the religious wars. The Inquisition has continued out of sight in smallscale massacres and dungeons through the 19th century (See Garibaldi's discoveries in the dungeons of Rome) and up to the present.
Here are two sources:
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.html#_Toc135810590
How Many People Died in the Inquisition? | The Cripplegate
And by the way, I have books that attribute Hitler's inspiration for the Holocaust to the Roman Church. He had the Pope behind him who then provided the "ratlines" by which thousands of Nazis escaped to South America after the war.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 10:51 PM mikechell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 11:48 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 224 of 375 (759771)
06-14-2015 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by mikechell
06-14-2015 10:51 PM


You appear to be attributing a quote to me that I did not write. If you're going to respond to more than one post at a time, it helps to identify the different writers in the quote boxes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by mikechell, posted 06-14-2015 10:51 PM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 375 (759773)
06-14-2015 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
06-14-2015 11:05 PM


First off, Faith ... I did type in who I was quoting. You are only credited for the 2 "numbers" posts.
Please please please stop attributing the Inquisition to "Christianity" or the Bible.
Okay ... not christianity ... Catholicism. Still based on the bible, still "christians" ... but they did kill members of the "other" faiths who did not renounce said faith.
Okay ... the "cripplegate" link raises the number to over 100,000. Still a LONG way from tens of millions.
The other site is just a long ... whatever. You talk about confusing ... whatever that is, I can't see that it actually SAYS anything.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 11:05 PM Faith has not replied

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