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Author Topic:   On the evolution of English as a written or spoken language.
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 76 of 88 (760763)
06-25-2015 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Jon
06-25-2015 11:52 AM


Re: Uniculturalism
And because they can actually be educated in English since, you know, there're actually textbooks, research papers, and other educated people to talk to in English (and French, and German, and Spanish, and...).
It's disgusting that these people put their academic ideologies over the lives of real flesh and blood human beings.
Um, I was under the assumption that we were talking about the article in NPR and the accompanying video that Phat linked. It concerned schoolkids in Zanzibar and the problems of a postcolonial Africa struggling to build an identity free of European influence.
And that's what I was talking about. What the hell are you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Jon, posted 06-25-2015 11:52 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Jon, posted 06-25-2015 1:15 PM MrHambre has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 88 (760777)
06-25-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by MrHambre
06-25-2015 12:29 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
It concerned schoolkids in Zanzibar and the problems of a postcolonial Africa struggling to build an identity free of European influence.
And that's a stupid goal that ignores the reality that Europe, its former colonies, and (increasingly) Asia have a heavy influence on the world.
Have you read through my posts in some of the economics threads (such as: A Tree is a Tree: Growthmanship in the Developed World )? I think it is pretty ridiculous that in a society overflowing with plenty people still need to be fully employed making and serving useless doodads.
But I still have a job.
The students want to know why they're going to fail their exams. The answer is that they'll fail them because no one bothered teaching them the English they needed to pass them.
Ideals are nice, but until reality matches those ideals, we need to be practical. And it's practically impossible to live a successful life without being fluent in one of the major European languages.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by MrHambre, posted 06-25-2015 12:29 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by MrHambre, posted 06-25-2015 2:42 PM Jon has replied
 Message 83 by anglagard, posted 06-27-2015 12:02 PM Jon has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 78 of 88 (760787)
06-25-2015 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Jon
06-25-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
Jon writes:
MrHambre writes:
It concerned schoolkids in Zanzibar and the problems of a postcolonial Africa struggling to build an identity free of European influence.
And that's a stupid goal that ignores the reality that Europe, its former colonies, and (increasingly) Asia have a heavy influence on the world.
Preserving their language and cultural identity is hardly a "stupid goal," and it confronts, rather than ignores, the undue influence of external powers. The question of learning English isn't just a political matter, it's an economic one: these poor communities have schools where English is taught by instructors with very little proficiency themselves.
Ideals are nice, but until reality matches those ideals, we need to be practical.
No, you don't have to. You can be as cynical and indifferent as you want. Centuries of colonial domination and looting by warlords have left these people with a choice between poverty and exploitation, and you're making it sound like the people in the community stressing the need to preserve its language and culture are the oppressors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Jon, posted 06-25-2015 1:15 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Jon, posted 06-25-2015 4:11 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 06-26-2015 12:40 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 88 (760792)
06-25-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by MrHambre
06-25-2015 2:42 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
... these poor communities have schools where English is taught by instructors with very little proficiency themselves.
That's a problem of course, but not nearly as big of a problem as trying to teach people world history without history text books or science without access to scientific journals and recent research.
No, you don't have to.
Then you (they) will fail.
These movements have been gaining ground, but everywhere they've been established they've only decreased access to quality education, increased poverty, and further enlarged the gap between the haves and have-nots.
In fact, they are so good at keeping the downtrodden down that one could speculate as to whether these movements are part of some conspiracy by the well-off to keep the masses manageable. It would almost be better if they were; as is, it's quite sad knowing that all of these plans are from a bunch of people thinking they are helping while doing all the wrong things.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by MrHambre, posted 06-25-2015 2:42 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 88 (760907)
06-26-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by MrHambre
06-25-2015 2:42 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
MrHambre writes:
... these poor communities have schools where English is taught by instructors with very little proficiency themselves.
When I was in first-year university, English 101 was a required class and there were a dozen or so sections of 20-30 students each. In our section we had a running joke that we were lucky to have the only professor who could actually speak English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by MrHambre, posted 06-25-2015 2:42 PM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Jon, posted 06-26-2015 6:27 PM ringo has replied
 Message 84 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2015 3:59 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 81 of 88 (760960)
06-26-2015 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
06-26-2015 12:40 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
In our section we had a running joke that we were lucky to have the only professor who could actually speak English.
I imagine the rest spoke Canadian?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 06-26-2015 12:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 06-27-2015 11:37 AM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 88 (761037)
06-27-2015 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Jon
06-26-2015 6:27 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
Jon writes:
I imagine the rest spoke Canadian?
No, they were mostly from India.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Jon, posted 06-26-2015 6:27 PM Jon has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(3)
Message 83 of 88 (761041)
06-27-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Jon
06-25-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
Jon writes:
And it's practically impossible to live a successful life without being fluent in one of the major European languages.
I find your statement a bit too broad. How is it "practically impossible to lead a successful life" in Japan, China, Indonesia, and South Korea without knowing a European language? It seems to me hundreds of millions do just that.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Jon, posted 06-25-2015 1:15 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 06-28-2015 9:26 PM anglagard has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 84 of 88 (761139)
06-28-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
06-26-2015 12:40 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
... In our section we had a running joke that we were lucky to have the only professor who could actually speak English.
The international language of science is broken english.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 88 (761140)
06-28-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by RAZD
06-28-2015 3:59 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
RAZD writes:
The international language of science is broken english.
I thought that only applied to seismology and collider physics?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 88 (761156)
06-28-2015 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by anglagard
06-27-2015 12:02 PM


Re: Uniculturalism
I find your statement a bit too broad. How is it "practically impossible to lead a successful life" in Japan, China, Indonesia, and South Korea without knowing a European language? It seems to me hundreds of millions do just that.
I was talking specifically about Africa, where a European language (English, French) is the typical option for a 'second' language.
In Message 77 I discussed the reality as it affects the world as a whole, where I included the languages of Asia.
The bottom line is that people can't be educated in some of the native African languages. If you try to educate folks in the native language, that education will be very limited; that's why the highschools switch the kids to English: there's no practical way to teach upper-level material in the native language because the tools (text books, online information, journal articles, etc.) just don't exist in the native language.
If the folks want access to that world (and having access to that world is pretty much the only way out of crushing poverty) they'll have to learn the European language eventually, and better do it while they're young when it's easy.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by anglagard, posted 06-27-2015 12:02 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by anglagard, posted 06-30-2015 12:22 AM Jon has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(2)
Message 87 of 88 (761260)
06-30-2015 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jon
06-28-2015 9:26 PM


It Helps to be More Specific
Jon writes:
I was talking specifically about Africa, where a European language (English, French) is the typical option for a 'second' language.
Then specifically say Africa, or apparently Sub-Saharan Africa, as Northern Africa speaks Arabic and has a long scholarly tradition since they have had a written language for well over a millennia.
Jon writes:
In Message 77 I discussed the reality as it affects the world as a whole, where I included the languages of Asia.
Here is message 77 in its entirety:
quote:
And that's a stupid goal that ignores the reality that Europe, its former colonies, and (increasingly) Asia have a heavy influence on the world.
Have you read through my posts in some of the economics threads (such as: A Tree is a Tree: Growthmanship in the Developed World )? I think it is pretty ridiculous that in a society overflowing with plenty people still need to be fully employed making and serving useless doodads.
But I still have a job.
The students want to know why they're going to fail their exams. The answer is that they'll fail them because no one bothered teaching them the English they needed to pass them.
Ideals are nice, but until reality matches those ideals, we need to be practical. And it's practically impossible to live a successful life without being fluent in one of the major European languages.
Yes you acknowledged the increasing importance of Asia in the first sentence and managed to forget that importance in the last. More clarity please.
Jon writes:
The bottom line is that people can't be educated in some of the native African languages. If you try to educate folks in the native language, that education will be very limited; that's why the highschools switch the kids to English: there's no practical way to teach upper-level material in the native language because the tools (text books, online information, journal articles, etc.) just don't exist in the native language.
If the folks want access to that world (and having access to that world is pretty much the only way out of crushing poverty) they'll have to learn the European language eventually, and better do it while they're young when it's easy.
I agree to a point and here is why. From WorldCat , defined by the wiki as "a union catalog that itemizes the collections of 72,000 libraries in 170 countries and territories . . . contains more than 330 million records, representing over 2 billion physical and digital assets in 485 languages, as of November 2014."
Preliminary research unfortunately does not provide the current statistics on this database but a snapshot from Dec. 2008 shows:
Records with linguistic content:
English 40,180,000
German 8,765,000
French 4,491,000
Spanish 3,038,000
Dutch 2,319,000
Chinese 1,693,000
Japanese 1,560,000
Russian 1,313,000
Italian 1,181,000
and
Swahili 5,800
Amharic 5,033
Yoruba 2,480
Hausa 2,525
Zulu 2034
Xhosa 1,415
Oromo 504
Igbo 472
Bantu (other) 1,100
The main problem is Sub-Saharan African languages, excluding those used in Ethiopia, were not written languages until after colonial contact. This does not mean such languages should be ignored, simply they do not have as deep a written record of scholarship as many others.
Please understand these figures with the following caveat:
quote:
A word of caution. Although new libraries from all over the world are constantly coming online, Worldcat is still heavily oriented towards the English-speaking countries and their foreign language collections. The numbers will fluctuate as library membership becomes more international. It is interesting to note that the list of top Worldcat languages resembles the list of Wikipedia languages ranked by the number of articles (top three: English, German, French). Languages like Swedish, Dutch, Portuguese and Polish rate rather high.
OK, bearing the above in mind, wouldn't it be better to say "It's practically impossible to obtain a meaningful graduate degree in science, engineering, international law or business without being fluent in either one of the major European languages or, somewhat more limiting, a major Asian language." than "And it's practically impossible to live a successful life without being fluent in one of the major European languages."
After all, what defines success? wealth? happiness? wisdom?
Sheesh, Jon. I agree with most of what you say but you sure make it a pain in the ass to support you when it seems we often have to spend half a dozen posts just to pin down exactly what you mean.
Edited by anglagard, : as usual, discovered a random misspelling

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 06-28-2015 9:26 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Jon, posted 06-30-2015 6:56 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 88 (761263)
06-30-2015 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by anglagard
06-30-2015 12:22 AM


Re: It Helps to be More Specific
I assumed that since Phat was talking about students in Africa and that I had written 'students' that my post was clearly linked to the discussion of Africa; but I will try to be more specific next time.
This much is certain, though: assuming that any Asian language is as foreign to the students as any European language (which isn't true, but let's just assume it for the sake of simplicity), it makes much more sense to educate the students in a European language (especially English) for the reasons I gave about available learning materials which your list supports.
OK, bearing the above in mind, wouldn't it be better to say "It's practically impossible to obtain a meaningful graduate degree in science, engineering, international law or business without being fluent in either one of the major European languages or, somewhat more limiting, a major Asian language." than "And it's practically impossible to live a successful life without being fluent in one of the major European languages."
Not even advanced degrees. The students Phat's article was talking about were going into highschool. Apparently it's not even possible to get a decent highschool education in Swahili. Equally apparent is the fact that the current system of educating in Swahili at the primary level doesn't do enough to prepare students for what will be required at the next level.
And an education system should be, at the very least, capable of preparing people to obtain more education.
These kids need to stop whining and start studying.
Sheesh, Jon. I agree with most of what you say but you sure make it a pain in the ass to support you when it seems we often have to spend half a dozen posts just to pin down exactly what you mean.
You seemed to figure it out

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by anglagard, posted 06-30-2015 12:22 AM anglagard has not replied

  
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