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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 226 of 451 (761059)
06-27-2015 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by anglagard
06-27-2015 2:12 PM


Re: The Creeds as definitive of a Christian
A Christian is born again, and although someone else may know in some cases that a person is or is not, it's something the person himself has to know. Also believes all the Creeds.
A member of any denomination may or may not be a Christian; church membership has nothing to do with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by anglagard, posted 06-27-2015 2:12 PM anglagard has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 451 (761070)
06-27-2015 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by herebedragons
06-26-2015 8:32 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
Deleted... never mind; you found it on your own: Message 215
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

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 Message 209 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2015 8:32 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 228 of 451 (761092)
06-28-2015 6:50 AM


From what I've seen when working in some Muslim countries was that anyone with a relatively white skin and/or coming from a Western Country was regarded as a Christian. White skin from South Africa, classified as Christian. No exceptions allowed.
Edited by Pressie, : I've seen. Duh!

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 451 (761094)
06-28-2015 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
05-27-2015 3:39 PM


Re: Kudos to all
Phat writes:
Does a person have to know God in order to love God?
ringo writes:
That depends on what you mean by "knowing" God. Do you have to know that His name is Jehovah? Do you have to know that He has a son named Jesus?
In my opinion, it is important to believe that Jesus is alive--today--in Spirit and Body. Where is His body, one may ask...We are the Body of Christ and He is the Head of this Body.
Is it possible to "know" Shakespeare five hundred years after he died?
Not in the same way that I know Jesus. Jesus is alive and Shakespeare is dead, though his writings are basically preserved forever as a legacy and "creation" of Shakespeares.
By his works ye shall know him.
Know whom? Jesus or the particular member of His Body?

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 05-27-2015 3:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 06-28-2015 2:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 451 (761095)
06-28-2015 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by nwr
05-27-2015 4:51 PM


Re: Christianity -- a society of pious hypocrites
nwr writes:
What is Christianity?
It's a society of pious hypocrites.
Over the last few years, we have heard a continual stream of accusations that gay marriage will encourage child molesters.
As jar has pointed out, each club usually has a different definition of what being a Christian means. Each club will try and support its beliefs by quoting from the same book.
In the end, its all a matter of individual opinion/belief as well as group consensus---in practicality---yet some clubs will also say that its a non negotiable reality of Gods Word.
To be attracted to the same gender is a definite inborn trait of some individuals. What one does with that attraction is the responsibility of the individual. My club believes that nobody is born gay or straight...we are born male and female. Its semantics---the definition of words.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by nwr, posted 05-27-2015 4:51 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


(1)
Message 231 of 451 (761109)
06-28-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Faith
06-26-2015 9:23 AM


Re: The Creeds as definitive of a Christian
The Holy Spirit is not a person. It is not a member of God. In OT times the concept of the Holy Spirit being God was never perpetuated.
Psalms 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."
If the Holy Spirit were also God, then why didn't King David just ask the Holy Spirit not to leave him? If the Holy Spirit were a member of God, wouldn't he have freedom of choice to stay or leave as he saw fit.
The Holy Spirit is never called a personage. It is never put forward as anything more than the power of God--a force and not a personage.
The Holy Spirit is not a person. It is not a member of God. But, if it were we could not use the Apostle John's recollection of it in the 14th, 15th, and 16th chapters of the Book that bears his name as support.
In these chapters, Jesus promised to send His disciples the Comforter. And the pronoun for Comforter is "he." My brother was adamant that the pronoun "he" proved conclusively that the Holy Spirit is a personage. It did not hinder his thinking that the Holy Spirit was called "it" in Romans 8:16,26.
16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:... 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
In any event, the Greek language, like many languages, assigns a gender for every noun. The gender will either be feminine, masculine, or neuter. In the Greek language the gender of the noun has nothing to do with whether the thing is REALLY feminine or masculine.
In the OT the Hebrew word for spirit is "ruwach." It is feminine.
The English pronoun "he" is used in connection with the word "Comforter." However, this is not because of theological or spiritual reasons.
In John the Greek word for "Comforter" is "parakletos." And, it has a masculine gender, which is why the translators used the pronoun "he."
In Acts 2: 2-3 the more correct pronoun "it" is used.
Notice:
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Also notice that it (the Holy Spirit) is described (at least, the sound of) as a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the house.
Furthermore, "it"(the Holy Spirit) took on the form/appearance of cloven tongues of fire, and it actually sat on each of them. And, how can a person fill a house unless he is extremely large.
This is describing a force; a power, not a personage. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in these verses that is describing a person.
It is interesting, to say the least, that the Greek word for spirit is "pneuma" (#4151 Strong). It refers to "a current of air," breath, or breeze.
Nothing about Pneuma suggests it being a person. Pneumatic tires and pneumonia come from pneuma.
The Holy Spirit is an impersonal power that emanates from God. God is omnipresent, but He is not a big fat blob that fills the entire universe. He is in one place, one location. But through His Spirit He is everywhere.
This should be easy for everyone to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 9:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 06-28-2015 12:58 PM Rocky.C has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 232 of 451 (761115)
06-28-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Rocky.C
06-28-2015 12:06 PM


Re: The Creeds as definitive of a Christian
Giving a blizzard of scripture verses with your own interpretation doesn't change the fact that the Trinity is based completely on scripture, which is laid out in many websites on the internet, such as THIS ONE which starts with the following basic outline which is then filled in from scripture:
I. There Is One God
II. This God is Known In The OT As Jehovah/Yahweh ("The Lord")
III. God Is A Unique, Incomprehensible Being
IV. Is God One Person?
V. The Father Of Jesus Christ Is God
VI. Jesus Christ Is God
VII. The Holy Spirit Is God
VIII. The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons
IX. Conclusion
X. What Difference Does The Doctrine Of The Trinity Make?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Rocky.C, posted 06-28-2015 12:06 PM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Rocky.C, posted 06-28-2015 2:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 233 of 451 (761119)
06-28-2015 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
06-28-2015 8:11 AM


Re: Kudos to all
Phat writes:
In my opinion, it is important to believe that Jesus is alive--today--in Spirit and Body. Where is His body, one may ask...We are the Body of Christ and He is the Head of this Body.
Then it's important that we are alive today. He can be alive "in Spirit" without actually existing. Tom Joad could be said to be alive "in Spirit".
Phat writes:
Jesus is alive and Shakespeare is dead, though his writings are basically preserved forever as a legacy and "creation" of Shakespeares.
How is Jesus more alive than Shakespeare?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
By his works ye shall know him.
Know whom? Jesus or the particular member of His Body?
You can know anybody by his works. Jesus said so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 06-28-2015 8:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 234 of 451 (761129)
06-28-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
06-28-2015 12:58 PM


Re: The Creeds as definitive of a Christian
The Holy Spirit is not a personage. It is not a member of the God family. Even if it were we could not us 1 John 5:7-8 (only in the KJV) as support.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one
Portions of the KJV are not in original Greek manuscripts. It was spuriously added in the Fourteenth Century by an unscrupulous monk who was desperate for Biblical support for the trinity.
This is how vs. 7 and 8 are recorded in the NIC.
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
The Revised Standard Translation has it:
7 For there are three that bare record, 8 the spirit, the water, and the blood:
After His earthly birth Jesus is never referred to as "the Word." From that point forward John referred to Jesus Christ by His name or by the term "Son" (of God).
If these verses were authentic, we would have the terms the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Spirit).
For the truly converted Christians the Holy Spirit is our earnest (Greek #728). It is a down payment; a pledge; part of a purchase price. This isn't describing a personage. It's not even close.
2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
If the Holy Spirit were a personage how would it be possible for someone to have a small portion of him. You would either have all or none.
The Father and the Son are Holy; no one would say otherwise. And, both of them are Spirits. They are both Holy Spirits.
The Father and the son are one. One here is not speaking of numerical value but of like-mindedness; unity; a oneness, much like a husband and wife who become one. Or, like the Apostles who were told to become one.
The Holy Spirit is the manifestation of Divine presence and Power of the Father and the Son. If this were not the case, and the Holy Spirit were a member of the God-Family, then he would be the father of Jesus, and Jesus would be guilty of calling the wrong one father.
Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
Matthew 1:20" But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Whose seed impregnated Mary?
These verses should make people stop thinking stupidly. If the Holy Spirit (the term translated here is Ghost, but it comes from pneuma, just as does Spirit) were indeed a personage, he would be the father of Jesus. There is no way around this.
1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"
At the present time Jesus is God's only begotten (Gennao--procreate, regenerate, conceive) son. We too can become His sons, not the sons of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus told His disciples that He would not leave them comfortless.
John 14: 18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." He could do this through His Holy Spirit.
John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
He would manifest Himself through the power (not personage) of the Holy Spirit.
John 14: 23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." They would do this through the power (not personage) of the Holy Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 06-28-2015 12:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 06-28-2015 3:03 PM Rocky.C has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 235 of 451 (761130)
06-28-2015 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Rocky.C
06-28-2015 2:55 PM


Re: The Creeds as definitive of a Christian
Rocky.C. writes:
The Holy Spirit is not a personage.
I think it quite clearly is, both in the sense of a character in the story and in the sense of a person of importance. Not a "person" literally, but a personage definitely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Rocky.C, posted 06-28-2015 2:55 PM Rocky.C has not replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 236 of 451 (761137)
06-28-2015 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
06-24-2015 8:56 AM


Re: Sunday worship and SDA legalism
But with Jesus' atonement, we are no longer required to keep the law. We are not under law, but grace Romans 6:14-15. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus. He is our rest. We are not under obligation, by law, to keep it. And this goes for the Sabbath as well. It is not a requirement that we keep the law. If we were, then we still be under the law, but we are not.
-----------------------------------------
***Nowhere does the New Covenant say that God's Law/10 Commandments are abolished. What it does say is that He will write His Law/10 Commandments in our hearts and in our inward parts.
Nothing here says that the 4th Commandment, or any of them, is no longer required.
The People were at fault because they could not and would not obey God's Commandments. He promised a new covenant, not a new set of laws.
A covenant is an agreement. God's Holy Spirit empowers people to obey God's Holy Laws. Under the old covenant the Holy Spirit was not given, except to a precious few, such as the prophets, etc....
Jeremiah 31:31-33.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 06-24-2015 8:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 06-28-2015 4:11 PM Rocky.C has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 237 of 451 (761141)
06-28-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Rocky.C
06-28-2015 3:53 PM


Re: Sunday worship and SDA legalism
You are right, the Sabbath has not been "abolished" and I didn't say it was. I said it was fulfilled in Jesus. We now are no longer under the Law's condemnation. You are, but those who trust in Christ's death for us are not. We are under grace through faith and we obey now from the heart what legalists try and fail to obey outwardly. Jesus IS our Sabbath, we obey it by resting in Him and trusting Him in every way for our justification and sanctification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Rocky.C, posted 06-28-2015 3:53 PM Rocky.C has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Rocky.C, posted 06-30-2015 11:22 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 249 by Rocky.C, posted 06-30-2015 11:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
Rocky.C
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 238 of 451 (761169)
06-29-2015 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
06-26-2015 11:50 AM


Re: The Creeds as definitive of a Christian
As I've already stated, in Hebrew the word holy comes from qodesh, meaning a sacred place or thing. in Greek the word "holy" is translated from hagios, meaning sacred.
In Hebrew spirit is translated from ruach, meaning wind, breath, or life. In Greek spirit comes from pneuma, meaning current of air, breath, breeze.
The Holy Spirit is not a name like the Father or Christ have. Holy and Spirit simply describes what the thing is. In this case, it is Holy because it is God's; it is Spirit because it is like the wind.
Notice what Jesus told Nicodemus, where he likens spirit to wind:
John 3: 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Both the Father and Son are composed of spirit; yet, they have names and form and shape. The Holy Spirit is nowhere given a name or as having form.
It is true that the Holy Spirit is described as resembling a dove, fire, tongues, wind, comforter, etc.... But how do these terms describe a person? My wife keeps a comforter on the bed. It brings us a good deal of comfort on cold winter nights. It is called a comforter because of what it does. And, grown men attempt to ascribe a bird (dove) as a member of God.
Again, I would like to know what the name of the Holy Spirit is if he is a person. And, what relationship does he have to the Father and Son. Is he the uncle, cousin, or nephew perhaps? Jesus sits at the right hand of His Father. Where does the Holy Spirit sit?
These might seem like foolish questions, but so is the assertion that the Holy Spirit is a person.
Lucifer has a name; the angels have names. They are spirit beings but they have names.
A human have a spirit. Notice carefully 1 Corinthians 2:
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Humans have a spirit, and God has a Spirit. Having a human spirit does not mean that our spirit is a separate individual inside us no more that God's Spirit signifies His Spirit is a person.
We can only comprehend and understand the spiritual things of God when His Spirit unites with our spirit.
The spirit in man is what separates us from the animals. It allows us to understand physical knowledge. It is why we are able to rationalize and solve complex problems. But, without God's Spirit uniting with our spirit we simply cannot understand the spiritual things of God.
Remember that I explained why the Comforter (Holy Spirit) is called "he." Well the same grammatical rules apply when we read that the pronoun for moon is "she" in Matthew 24:29. And why the possessive pronoun for sun is "his" in Revelations 1:16. It is also the reason the possessive pronoun for earth is rendered "her" in Isaiah 13:13.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God is a Holy Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:50 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 06-29-2015 10:59 AM Rocky.C has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 239 of 451 (761170)
06-29-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Rocky.C
06-29-2015 10:41 AM


One Mans Argument For Meaning Of Spirit
So if I get what you mean, you argue that God is Spirit, Jesus has Spirit and that the Spirit is the active force of God. Correct?
Edited by Phat, : clarified post

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Rocky.C, posted 06-29-2015 10:41 AM Rocky.C has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 06-29-2015 11:25 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 240 of 451 (761173)
06-29-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
06-29-2015 10:59 AM


Re: One Mans Argument For Meaning Of Spirit
Phat writes:
So if I get what you mean, you argue that God is Spirit, Jesus has Spirit and that the Spirit is the active force of God. Correct?
Does that even have any meaning or is it just another feel good bumper sticker like "Jesus is alive today"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 06-29-2015 10:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 06-29-2015 11:35 AM jar has replied

  
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