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Author | Topic: Is Christianity Evil? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
So Christianity isn't evil; cynical Christians are evil.
If benign religious ideas are adopted by cynical people and exploited for their own benefit empires and institutions are create power and wealth which last for generations.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
It's debatable whether those are "Christian ideas" or just ideas that some Christians have.
examples of 'evil' Christian ideas are many
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes:
It does seem like a pretty low threshold of evil.
Actually I have a real question whether more than two of Tangle's examples could even be remotely considered as evil.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
No they haven't. Most of your objections are common to many religions. " Women are inferior creatures" is probably as common outside religion as in. Christians may have inherited evil from human nature or borrowed it from somewhere but it's a stretch to suggest that they "invented" anything. They've all been invented by mainstream organisations that call themselves Christians. As Jon said in the OP Christianity began as a "pacific" religion, certainly more pacific than its Mosaic roots. The evil in it is largely superimposed, not inherent.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
People who join organizations may be more susceptible to groupthink and/or crowd mentality than "freethinkers".
Groupthink? Crowd Mentality?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
I explained: "Most of your objections are common to many religions," etc. Your task would be to show that my explanation is wrong.
Yes they have. Now what? Tangle writes:
I continued explaining: "Women are inferior creatures" is probably as common outside religion as in. Christians may have inherited evil from human nature or borrowed it from somewhere but it's a stretch to suggest that they "invented" anything. Your task would be to back up your claim that religion is the origin of any evil.
Exactly, they're all wrong, we just happened to be discussing Christianity. Tangle writes:
So you admit that the evil came from "power hungry institutions" - e.g. the Roman Empire - not the scatter-brained and disorganized early Christians.
Christianity grew into schismed power hungry institutions from Constantine and before that it was a divisive mess with many variants of your club Christian kicking around saying weird and wonderful things about what they thought it all meant.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're misusing Matthew 10:37. Jesus was telling his followers to separate themselves from loved ones who DON'T do the kumbaya thing. He was underlining kumbaya, not rejecting it.
This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
IF God exists, God exists whether or not anyone believed it to be so.Phat writes:
Why would there be only one?
There is only one God.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
My thoughts are that there's no particular reason for there to be only one god. Why would there be only one?
Thats a good question. What are your thoughts on it?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Those are offices, not entities. One office, one office-holder, one pay-check. Why do most countries have only one president? Why are most courses taught by one teacher? Why is there more than one law? Why is there more than one school subject? Why is there more than one elephant?
Phat writes:
It's easier for you to "imagine" because you're not imagining at all. You're just accepting the line of rhetoric that you've been spoon-fed.
Its easier to imagine One source for creation rather than a sub committee! Phat writes:
Why can't a sub-committee be collectively all-powerful and collectively all-knowing?
All powerful.....thus no need for help All knowing.....no need to share this trait. Phat writes:
In the Book of Job, Satan DID share the power.
In fact, the only argument for shared power comes from our plucky cherub, Satan himself.... Phat writes:
Now you're meddling with the doctrine of the Trinity?
Even Jesus never thought of equality with His Father.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
AHEM! Aren't you the one who's always preaching against that?
Everyone can rescue a puppy, but it takes a real heart to rescue some old drunk with no redeeming qualities.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Jesus said it will; in fact, it's the ONLY way to enhance your status with the creator.
My point is that doing so will not enhance your status with the Creator. Phat writes:
But it's God/Jesus doing the forcing. You want to have communion with God without doing actually doing what He tells you to do.
I guess that my whole irritation at your admonition was because I felt forced to do.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No He wasn't. He was talking to "all nations".
Jesus was talking to Jews when He preached works. Phat writes:
If you're relying on second-hand commentary rather than the Son of God, don't forget that James said, "Faith without works is dead."
Paul (whom you guys seemingly ignore) showed us that our righteousness was as filthy rags and that there was and is no way to earn salvation. Phat writes:
The only way you can tell who has received the gift is by their deeds. By their fruit ye shall know them, not by their saying, "Lord! Lord!"
Salvation is a gift. It is not given only to those who hear and do. Phat writes:
It isn't about having confidence in your salvation. NOBODY should have confidence in their salvation. You should be constantly asking yourself, "Did I do enough?" You should be expecting God to ask you on the Judgement Day, "What about that homeless man you stepped over on the night of April 17th?"
In fact, having confidence in your own salvation based on how much works you do is a surefire recipe for failure.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Correct. You can't invoke the Holy Spirit to trump Jesus.
You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit. Phat writes:
Paul may have been in perfect communion with God at the gates of Damascus but we're talking about what he said, not what he "knew". He can possibly be forgiven for making Get Out of Hell Free sound easy for the Romans, Corinthians, et al. After all, you don't sell Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises by telling people how hard it is to make a profit. Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit. But you, having Jesus' own words (supposedly) to go by, have no excuse for watering down the message.
Phat writes:
I have never said that you won't get any help from God. I have said that you can't COUNT on any help from God. You are REQUIRED to do your best, whether He helps you or not. Otherwise, you're a goat.
You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God. Phat writes:
Your point is wrong. The "transformation" IS the works.
My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And you think that's a good thing? Christs death had more impact than His life. Why did Jesus bother teaching at all if it was only His death that mattered? Was He just trying to provoke the Romans and/or the Jews into killing Him? If so, why wasn't He a lot more provocative? Wouldn't, "Down with Caesar!" instead of, "The meek shall inherit the earth," have gotten Him killed a lot quicker?
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