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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Evil?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 17 of 120 (761911)
07-06-2015 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
07-06-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Division
Actually I have a real question whether more than two of Tangle's examples could even be remotely considered as evil.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-06-2015 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 07-06-2015 1:30 PM jar has not replied
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2015 4:56 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 120 (761984)
07-07-2015 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
07-07-2015 4:56 AM


Re: Division
You are of course free to disagree. That is certainly your right.
But since neither of the two possible evils are universal or exclusive to Christianity or even to religions your position seems just plain silly.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2015 4:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2015 9:49 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 29 of 120 (761988)
07-07-2015 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tangle
07-07-2015 9:49 AM


Re: Division
Let me fix that for you.
The point is that people have beliefs which are often harmful, some devastatingly so.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2015 9:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(4)
Message 32 of 120 (761993)
07-07-2015 10:49 AM


My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
Recently the question was asked whether or not I consider Christianity to be evil and if I think Fundamentalists and Evangelical Christians are evil. For the record, I do not think Christianity is evil, nor do I think Fundamentalists and Evangelicals are evil.
So now that that part is out of the way, how do I really feel about it?
As a Christian I think one of the first things needed is some personal honesty. That is, it seems to me, a basic tenet and requirement of the faith, the religion called Christianity. It is inherent in the confession. We are expected to honestly look at ourselves, our lives and our behavior and see where we have done wrong, where we have failed to do right, to acknowledge those failings and try to do better in the future.
When I was little, (probably about three or four because this strange new man had joined the family; my dad who had been overseas when I was born), Dad would take me for walks. I remember that one key part of every walk was that I herd the baby ducks and keep them together. This was hard and demanded full concentration. Often one of the baby ducks would dart off on its own and only because my dad saw it and called out to me was I able to catch it and direct it back to the others.
Other grown ups passing by would often ask what I was doing. Herding baby Ducks, my father would proudly say. While he talked with them, it was my job to make sure the big folk didn’t accidentally step on one of the baby ducks. Most big folk, you know, can’t see invisible baby ducks. Only I and my dad could see them and we had to keep them safe.
Were the baby ducks real? At the time, absolutely. They lived in a special place under the front porch and only came out when I called them. They were MY responsibility, and I kept them safe.
Would I teach a three year old today to herd baby ducks? Absolutely.
Would I expect the three year old to eventually grow up and realize that invisible baby ducks are only possible when in the presence of a Daddy and his new son, that they are a wonder and creation of the age and time? Certainly.
When I was little I also believed, believed very strongly that Christians were good and everybody else was wrong. Then we moved into a Jewish neighborhood. Ours was the only goyim family. I knew that Goya had been a great painter so being called a little artist didn’t bother me much. Then I learned exactly what goyim meant.
One day one of the big kids was picking on my little brother, knocked him down and called him a dirty goyim. I totally lost my temper and headed straight towards the bigger kid. He must have seen the look in my eyes that said retreat is the better part of valor because even though he was bigger than me by a good bit, he took off running for home with me right behind. He reached his door just as my hand reached out to grab him and he slammed it shut.
Were the big folk that stepped on baby ducks evil because they simply couldn’t see them? Was the big kid, who later became a good friend by the way, evil?
As we grow and learn more we hopefully gain from the mistakes we made in the past. Today, when I talk with a dad whose three year old son is diligently herding invisible baby ducks I am careful to make sure I don’t step on any, and when (as always happens) I do almost step on one I am careful to thank the lad for warning me and to always ask before I put my foot down if there is a duck beneath. Today I try to remember what it felt like to be goyim, and the rage and fury I felt when my little brother was knocked down and called dirty goyim.
We are the sum of our experiences.
I am also a Christian. As I see Christianity is both a set of teachings and also the body, the communion of Christians down through the ages. Some Christians were great, some evil, most simply forgotten. All though were Christian.
Later I learned more of the history of this thing, this communion called Christianity. What I learned was not always pleasant, much in fact was horrific. Very little was as simple or serene as what I had been taught.
What I learned was that down through the ages many horrific things were done in the name of Christianity and by Christians. Protestants oppressed Catholics, Catholics oppressed Protestants, and both oppressed every other religion. Down through the ages the Jew came in for special attention, being expelled from nearly every country and their property seized. Time after time it happened.
I learned about how the Native Americans were taken from their homes, given new names, had their hair cut, forbidden to speak their own language, sent to Christian Schools where they had to learn a new religion, how their old religion was mocked and forbidden.
I learned how the Codices and tablets were burned by the Padres that accompanied the Conquistadores, what happened in Hawaii, what happened throughout South and Central America.
I saw the white church members standing at the curbs shouting Let the dogs loose or Turn on the hoses, and saw the Christian Schools popping up like toadstools as the white Christian parents pulled their kids out of public school so they would not have to sit next to a monkey. I saw churches that had been bombed or burned out, bodies of people working for equal rights after they had been shot, sometimes mutilated.
I look around today and see other Christians shouting God hates Fags and voting time after time to ban same-sex marriages and claiming that Islam is barbaric.
Christianity must, IMHO, accept responsibility for the evil as well as the good done in its name.
In discussions at EvC and at other places, when the more horrific acts are brought up, one response I often hear is They were not real Christians or That is not what Christ taught. I disagree with the former, and agree with the later. I also think that using either as an excuse or as a way to shirk responsibility is dishonest. Granted it is not what Christ taught but it IS what Christians did, and in every case I examined, the people were honest, sincere and believed strongly that what they were doing was right and that it was the Christian thing to do. They were all sure that they were morally right.
The Missionary teacher that helped bring the poor savages to the Missionary School, who clothed the kids, cut their hair, gave them good Christian Names, taught them to read and maybe even write, taught them about GOD did so to save the kids souls.
The Padre that accompanied the Conquistadores and that burned the Codices did it for what they saw as the best of reasons, saving souls. This refrain has been repeated time after time and over issue after issue. It is only later, when we look back on the sermons written on how to civilize the savage, what the place of the Blackman in society is, on the terrible wrong we did in destroying cultures and beliefs that we realize how wrong we were.
If we are to avoid make such errors in the future, I believe we must honestly acknowledge what we have done in the past, that but by the grace of GOD those people could be us and that we too are capable of committing such horrific acts. If we try to claim that they were somehow different than us, that they were not real Christians, then I fear we are bound to continue down that path.
Looking at things today, seeing the Christian support for denying civil rights to homosexuals, the growth of Biblical Creationism and the ID movement I have little hope.
From jar - On Christianity back almost a decade ago.
Since then there have been a few rays of hope. More and more chapters of Club Christian are finally fully recognizing basic human rights and both Creationism and ID appear totally Dead on Arrival.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2015 11:55 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 120 (762004)
07-07-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by saab93f
07-07-2015 11:55 AM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
All the more the examples you wrote are a portrayal of pure evil IMO. If there was a supernatural entity that did not stop the missionary nor the Padre then I cannot conceive a greater evil. What a deity would see it best to drag children from their families and cultures - an omnipotent??
Often a parent can see a child doing wrong but still not intervene or even be able to intervene. If humans are to have freewill then humans must also be responsible for their actions.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2015 11:55 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2015 12:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 120 (762008)
07-07-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by saab93f
07-07-2015 12:42 PM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
People in your examples were doing honestly what they thought their God required. They had zero thought about the folks they subjugated, none whatsoever. I honestly cannot help but think that it was the religion that made the otherwise decent people do horrible things.
No cop out but maybe a little honesty.
But it is not God who made anyone do anything but rather the people themselves. People do evil things, I do not question that. People do evil things based on beliefs, religion, personal morality, anger, greed, the list can go on forever.
No one denies that in those cases it was their religion, their beliefs that drove their behavior.
They did have thoughts about the folk the oppressed, killed, subjugated and they did what they did for the benefit of the people they oppressed, killed and subjugated.
You and I may well think they were wrong, but that is based on our beliefs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2015 12:42 PM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2015 2:51 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 120 (762034)
07-07-2015 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by saab93f
07-07-2015 2:51 PM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
They did what they thought THEIR god required. They never shed a thought about others as equal human beings.
You talk about free will - where was the free will of those subjugated? When the choice was between death or conversion, all talk about freedom or free will is absurd.
But I agree that was the wrong decision. That does not make God or Christianity evil. That makes what they did evil and the God they created evil.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2015 2:51 PM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by saab93f, posted 07-08-2015 3:59 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 120 (762065)
07-08-2015 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by saab93f
07-08-2015 3:59 AM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
What is the difference? The deity you claimed they created as opposed to an objective, genuine supernatural entity. For me this sounds even more like a cop-out, that God is always good but his followers bad, God gave people freewill but only to Christians and that there really is no true Scotsmen.
But I have not said anything like that.
First, I doubt very much that God is either good or evil, moral or immoral. Moral, immoral, even amoral are all just human constructs we use to describe individual assessment of something.
All people have freewill. But freewill and freedom are not synonyms.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by saab93f, posted 07-08-2015 3:59 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by saab93f, posted 07-08-2015 9:21 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 52 of 120 (762070)
07-08-2015 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by saab93f
07-08-2015 9:21 AM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
Sorry, I thought that your choice of words "the God they created" implying that the real thing was somehow better or more moral than that.
I believe any God we can discuss or folk can describe is a human creation.
GOD, if GOD exists is something beyond whatever we might be able to describe.
But terms like moral or immoral, good or evil, seem silly when applied to something beyond any comprehension.
I personally cannot believe in anything more than what we have here and now. That does not mean that I couldn't comprehend the need for "something bigger". For me that is just unnecessary - being good for goodness' sake and enjoying each day is more than enough.
And that is fine. I have never suggested anyone should believe or not believe in GOD. If GOD does exist, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, then I cannot imagine such an entity really giving a damn about whether or not some human believes in it.
My point is that as a Christian I believe we need to acknowledge that other Christians have in the past and still today behave in a despicable manner. We cannot have an easy cop out by pretending God wanted it done or those people were not Christians or that it was not Christian policy.
The lesson is that people can and do do horrible things and that we need to acknowledge that fact and try to do better in the future.
To return to Christianity I grew up within let me point to a major part of every church service and home service I experienced which is called the Confession. In it we are lead to really think about our behavior and we are expected to do a series of thing, acknowledge when we screw up, be sorry we did so, try to make amends and also to not repeat the acts.
It's not enough to just say "Repent" or "Not perfect, just SAVED" or "Jesus forgives my sins" , you need to do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by saab93f, posted 07-08-2015 9:21 AM saab93f has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 07-08-2015 12:48 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 120 (769613)
09-23-2015 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
09-23-2015 2:10 AM


Re: Untangling the mystery
Phat writes:
Why do most countries have only one president?
Think Phat.
Is the President the Supreme Law of the Land in the US?
Is not power shared with checks and balances to limit authority?
Do you support the concept of Dictatorship?
What is the Biblical source for assuming that Satan desired shared power? Have you ever actually read the Bible?
Who said The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-23-2015 2:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 120 (770099)
09-29-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
09-28-2015 10:03 PM


Re: Good Works. A Chore or an Impartation?
Phat writes:
You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit. Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Actually, if you read the Bible accounts of Paul's experience what you find is not an example of "The Holy Spirit" doing anything but rather a tale getting embellished and expanded as it is repeated over time. You know that since I have pointed out the progressio0n of the tale passages to you specifically several times.
Phat writes:
Peter, despite having been on the mount of transfiguration, denied Christ 3 times as jesus said he would do. Later he was instrumental in 3000 people coming to know the Lord.
And when Peter asked Jesus what he was supposed to do Jesus did not tell him to believe or preach or any other woo stuff, Jesus said "Feed my people."
Phat writes:
You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God. My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works.
The only thing one gets is a satiated conscience.
So many errors.
First is there any evidence of a transformed life?
Jesus says repeatedly by word and by acts that we are to do; to heal the sick, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, shelter the homeless, teach the children, comfort the sorrowful. I know you know that since I have gone over those passages verse by verse with you many times. That is what Jesus taught instead of what Paul and Peter and Luke and John tried to market.
And it is not about what you get, it is about what you give, what you return to others.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-28-2015 10:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 7:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 120 (770122)
09-29-2015 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
09-29-2015 7:16 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
Phat writes:
jar writes:
That is what Jesus taught instead of what Paul and Peter and Luke and John tried to market.
Im going to investigate whether there is any real evidence that Jesus had a different message than the fab four. The dispensationalists have ready explanations. The message did change---we see that. There is no evidence that the message was being sold rather than told, however.
LOL
The evidence can never be found from dispensationalists; the evidence is the words actually written in the New Testament; read what is actually written instead of listening to the Carny Snake Oil salesmen.
Of course the message was being sold, what the hell do you think evangelism means or evangelists do; they try to sell their product.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
First is there any evidence of a transformed life?
I would argue that there is evidence in most cases.
If that were actually true then there would be (as the Bible and Jesus said) an obvious difference in behavior so that the transformed stood out as shining examples to all; to heathen, atheist, agnostic, Taoist, animist ...; by their fruits they would be known.
But so far no one has ever presented such evidence and even at the forum what we see is that those who claim to be transformed don't show such characteristics.
Edited by jar, : missed a semidedmiheavicolon
Edited by jar, : and a n't

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 7:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 10-05-2015 8:24 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 120 (770411)
10-05-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
10-05-2015 8:24 AM


Re: Marketing A Message
Phat writes:
There is no evidence that Paul was in it for the money nor anyone mentioned in the New testament, except perhaps Judas.
Christs death had more impact than His life.
Come on Phat. There are many more reasons to sell stuff than just money; there is prestige, poser, notoriety, fantasy and there is absolutely no evidence that Paul ever had a job, profession or did any work. He was not a shoemaker, fisherman, carpenter or ditch digger. Yet he had money, food, clothing, shelter.
Unfortunately for many if not most Christians today Christs death does have more impact than His life; which is why so much of Christianity today is but a failed religion based on a failed messiah.
Edited by jar, : man ---> many

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 10-05-2015 8:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 10-05-2015 10:14 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 120 (770417)
10-05-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
10-05-2015 10:14 AM


Re: Marketing A Message
Faith writes:
It is well known that Paul made his living as a tentmaker:
Well, no, that is neither well know or really evidenced. Gill of course is another asppologist, making stuff up and rewriting the Bible.
But you are simply taking stuff out of context as usual. Acts 18 is about Paul marketing in Corinth and in fact says that when Jewish beliefs got in the way of his marketing he simply closed up shop and moved the Medicine Wagon to a different part of town and a new audience. His business was not tent making but selling his new religion.
quote:
Acts: 18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them.
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 10-05-2015 10:14 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by kbertsche, posted 10-05-2015 2:56 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 120 (770430)
10-05-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by kbertsche
10-05-2015 2:56 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
But again, those are all examples of marketing. Even if true they don't indicate Paul as an active tent maker. Perhaps at one time Saul was a tent maker in addition to his primary job of killing followers of Jesus but Paul's sole job seems to be trying to market his new religion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by kbertsche, posted 10-05-2015 2:56 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 10-05-2015 4:22 PM jar has replied

  
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