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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 572 of 675 (759302)
06-10-2015 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Phat
06-10-2015 12:45 PM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
Phat writes:
You alone...among the many chapters of club christian...emphasize this message. Does it not seem obvious that judging the Creator of all seen and unseen is rather ludicrous? The only purpose it would serve is as a lesson using a god-as plot device-in a story.
No, it does not seem at all ludicrous and in fact I have provided you with examples where the Bible says we should do just that.
Phat writes:
So lets take a hypothetical situation. Jesus--fully alive today--offers to help shoulder the responsibility for jars sins. Is jar going to accept the offer or wave Him off and prefer doing it all alone?
What does that even mean? What does "Jesus--fully alive today" mean? Will he water my yard, pull weeds do anything that can possibly be seen as helping?
Why would I ever want someone else to rake responsibility for my actions? Is this more playground buck passing "Billy did it"?
Phat writes:
It seems to me that some of us prefer accepting full responsibility and others of us wont handle it. Those who wont handle it claim justification that they can't handle it and that GOD has granted us a pardon.
Those who reject this idea seem--in my mind---to reject any help from GOD even if it were proven to be offered.
Yes, some folk will not accept responsibility for their actions and want someone else, anyone, God, Jesus, Bankruptcy Court to shoulder the debt.
Phat writes:
A man who was raised from the dead by the Creator of all seen and unseen is noteworthy, however.
Like the son of the Zarephath widow and the son of the Shunammite woman and Lazarus and Dorcas and Jarius' daughter and the son of Nain's widow and that guy that touched dem bones from Elisha but a god raised from the dead is just ho-hum, of no real relevance.
If Jesus was God/Man then his resurrection, his Ascension are meaningless and worthless.
I don't dismiss Paul but I am honest enough to point out that often he is simply marketing a spiel, selling his product. As in the very quote you use, Paul is simply quotemining from the Old Testament, taking material out of context and incorporating it in a message designed to create a new Paulian religion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Phat, posted 06-10-2015 12:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by Phat, posted 06-17-2015 3:21 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 573 of 675 (760090)
06-17-2015 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by jar
06-10-2015 3:44 PM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
jar writes:
What does that even mean? What does "Jesus--fully alive today" mean?
A good question for professing Christians. In fact its a good question to ask yourself every morning.
Will he water my yard, pull weeds do anything that can possibly be seen as helping?
Maybe. A good friend can hang out with you as you do your chores. They likely won't help you unless you are in need of help, however. Perhaps you two can chat.
some folk will not accept responsibility for their actions and want someone else, anyone, God, Jesus, Bankruptcy Court to shoulder the debt.
Some folks in society are incapable of handling responsibility. What is our duty to them?
a god raised from the dead is just ho-hum, of no real relevance.
Noting the smaller case g, I would assume that Jesus is jess one of the guys to you. We both believe that GOD raised him from the dead, however, so if you are ever chatting with him while doing your chores, you may find he has some insights that you and I don't have.
If Jesus was God/Man then his resurrection, his Ascension are meaningless and worthless.
yes you often say this. How about if jesus is in communion with GOD. Is this possible? For us also?
As for Paul, I've never known him personally so the jury is out on that guy.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by jar, posted 06-10-2015 3:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by jar, posted 06-18-2015 9:53 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 574 of 675 (760162)
06-18-2015 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Phat
06-17-2015 3:21 PM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
Sorry Phat but you failed to answer or even address any of the questions.
Let's try and see if you can address just one.
What does "Jesus--fully alive today" mean?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Phat, posted 06-17-2015 3:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 07-09-2015 11:18 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 575 of 675 (762151)
07-09-2015 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by jar
06-18-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
jar writes:
Sorry Phat but you failed to answer or even address any of the questions.
Let's try and see if you can address just one.
What does "Jesus--fully alive today" mean?
Im sorry if i dont understand the question. I believe that Jesus is alive today. Whether this means that we are Jesus (as the Body Of Christ) or whether this means that I believe that the human Jesus was raised from the Dead by GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is open for consideration as a belief. I cannot prove either of those two scenarios. Am I making sense so far?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by jar, posted 06-18-2015 9:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 11:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 577 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 576 of 675 (762153)
07-09-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by Phat
07-09-2015 11:18 AM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
Phat writes:
Im sorry if i dont understand the question. I believe that Jesus is alive today. Whether this means that we are Jesus (as the Body Of Christ) or whether this means that I believe that the human Jesus was raised from the Dead by GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is open for consideration as a belief. I cannot prove either of those two scenarios. Am I making sense so far?
Not yet.
What does "Jesus is alive today" mean?
If we are Jesus then Jesus does not exist beyond just being a human figment or human attribute.
If Jesus like so many people was raised from the dead how does that make Jesus alive today? How is Jesus different than the guy that brushed against "dem bones"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 07-09-2015 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 577 of 675 (762156)
07-09-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by Phat
07-09-2015 11:18 AM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
Phat writes:
I believe that Jesus is alive today.
Is he alive in the sense of a bacterium or alive in the sense of a virus? Or maybe he's alive in the sense that English is a living language, as opposed to Latin which is a more-or-less dead language?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 07-09-2015 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 12:55 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 579 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 1:55 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 578 of 675 (762165)
07-09-2015 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by ringo
07-09-2015 11:57 AM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
ringo writes:
Or maybe he's alive in the sense that English is a living language, as opposed to Latin which is a more-or-less dead language?
That's a great question. Just as we humans continue to create, modify and evolve the English language, perhaps Phat means Jesus is alive in the sense that humans continue to create, modify and evolve Jesus.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 11:57 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 579 of 675 (762171)
07-09-2015 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by ringo
07-09-2015 11:57 AM


Re: Jesus is alive
Phat writes:
I believe that Jesus is alive today.
ringo writes:
Is he alive in the sense of a bacterium or alive in the sense of a virus? Or maybe he's alive in the sense that English is a living language, as opposed to Latin which is a more-or-less dead language?
He's alive in the sense that He is actually alive and sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven; and He's alive in the sense that He is aware of everything that goes on with all of us and intercedes/prays for His church; and He's alive in the sense that sometimes we are blessed enough to experience His presence and to receive both indirect and direct communications from Him. "He is risen. He is risen indeed."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 2:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 589 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:00 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 580 of 675 (762177)
07-09-2015 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by Faith
07-09-2015 1:55 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Faith writes:
and He's alive in the sense that sometimes we are blessed enough to experience His presence and to receive both indirect and direct communications from Him.
What exactly are the tests used to determine if the presence you think you are experiencing are Jesus and not Satan or just a bad burrito?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 1:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by Phat, posted 07-09-2015 2:25 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 582 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 2:41 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 581 of 675 (762181)
07-09-2015 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by jar
07-09-2015 2:08 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
The tests are not scientific. There is, as far as I am aware, no tests that verify the presence of Jesus Christ and/or The Holy Spirit in an individual or group of individuals.
All that we have are scripture and observation.
What exactly are the tests used to determine if the presence you think you are experiencing are Jesus and not Satan or just a bad burrito?
One may well argue that Jesus and satan are characters in a book and (each) have certain characteristics which identify their actions.
Personally I believe strongly that Jesus is alive---within my soul and within my heart---but will leave that up to you to determine if I need a hospital for reactions to a phantom "bad burrito" or whether I need one of the newest and greatest psychiatric medicines which will balance my rationality--at least in your mind.
We can rule out the bad burrito...at least i can...due to the fact that I have eaten no burritos for several weeks. This leaves us with two "characters in a book" as you might say.
All of us can read the book together if you prefer...and perhaps glean evidence describing the attributes of each character enough so that we can likely determine which character is being imitated...sort of like a game of charades. This will tell us nothing proving the actual presence of such a character. We shall allow the audience to draw their own conclusions from our behavior.
If Faith is in, I'll go round up Hope and Charity and we can proceed with our test.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 2:08 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 582 of 675 (762184)
07-09-2015 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by jar
07-09-2015 2:08 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
What exactly are the tests used to determine if the presence you think you are experiencing are Jesus and not Satan or just a bad burrito?
Sometimes it is not clear and in that case you should ignore it. But sometimes the message is so biblical and appropriate to the current situation you know it's from Him. It is in great revivals where His presence is most powerfully experienced and those are judged by their biblical quality and by their fruits. In all these situations we are not to make the experience the standard, but it's a lovely accompaniment nevertheless. A bad burrito would give one a stomachache, the presence of God is meltingly beautiful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 2:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 3:10 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 583 of 675 (762195)
07-09-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by Faith
07-09-2015 2:41 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
How do you know it is from "Him" particularly when the Bible itself is so filled with errors, falsehoods, contradictions and irrelevancies?
After all the devil can quote scripture.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 2:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 3:16 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 584 of 675 (762197)
07-09-2015 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 583 by jar
07-09-2015 3:10 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Well, I can be sure that YOU will never know because you deny that the Bible is God's inerrant word, and that's the prerequisite for judging any Christian experience or teaching.
For instance, if a person gets a message from "God" instructing the person to divorce his or her spouse, which I know has happened in many cases including one I'm personally familiar with, that message was not from God because a message that really came from God can't contradict His word, which clearly says He hates divorce.
You are quite right that the devil can quote scripture, and as I said sometimes we don't know for sure the source of such a communication and then we should ignore it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 3:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 3:34 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 585 of 675 (762203)
07-09-2015 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Faith
07-09-2015 3:16 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Faith writes:
Well, I can be sure that YOU will never know because you deny that the Bible is God's inerrant word, and that's the prerequisite for judging any Christian experience or teaching.
So are you saying that the test requires that I first believe total falsehoods? What if I belong to a chapter of Club Christian that does not require I throw away my brain before entering?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by Faith, posted 07-09-2015 3:45 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 586 of 675 (762204)
07-09-2015 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by jar
07-09-2015 3:34 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
What if I belong to a chapter of Club Christian that does not require I throw away my brain before entering?
You really should throw yours away since it's been misleading you for some time by telling you the Bible has lies in it. First prerequisite is to believe the Bible is God's word and you've missed it, probably terminally. I might feel sorry for you except for the fact that you've been aggressively misleading others into your ditch. Perhaps at least you will enjoy the Pope's company for eternity, since the Popes have misled millions into that ditch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 3:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by jar, posted 07-09-2015 3:59 PM Faith has replied
 Message 608 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 10:55 AM Faith has replied

  
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