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Author
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Topic: Is it time to consider compulsory vaccinations?
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2324 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 826 of 930 (762607)
07-13-2015 11:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 824 by Faith
07-13-2015 11:04 PM
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Re: CDC scientist admits to fudging research
Just to let you know, this isn't a future plan.. it happened almost a year ago and his testimony fizzled.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 824 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 11:04 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 827 of 930 (762608)
07-13-2015 11:21 PM
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More fudged research for the CDC
The film discusses at some length research done for the CDC in 1999 on the connection between Thimerosal and autism, ADHD, ADD and other childhood problems, by a Belgian researcher named Thomas Verstraeten. This research is highly touted by defenders of the safety of vaccines such as Dr. Paul Offit. However, it is reported in the film that the study went through five different versions as they sought to get the data to a level they could accept, eliminating various subjects until it came out low enough to be published. The first research found a 7.6 relative risk of autism; the second version got it down to a 2.48 relative risk, the third to 1.60, and finally the fourth a year later at 1.52. None of this was reported at the hearing convened by Congressman Dan Burton in July of 2000. They pretended they hadn't been able to arrive at a conclusion. Official whistleblower Thompson wasn't part of this study but in reference to his own work at CDC he was recorded in the phone conversation with Brian Hooker saying:
"You've got to understand, when the CDC sees a vaccine's adverse association that they don't want to report, theyu put a bunch of scientists in a room together and they work for hours and hours until they can get that association to go away. ABE: CORRECTION: This isn't a quote from Thompson but Hooker paraphrasing Thompson. He claims it's almost verbatim what Thompson said, however. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Minnemooseus
Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: 11-11-2001 Member Rating: 10.0
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Message 828 of 930 (762609)
07-13-2015 11:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 826 by Asgara
07-13-2015 11:10 PM
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Re: CDC scientist admits to fudging research
Faith's link is defective, but per Snopes, this is the original source. The Snopes article gave it an "UNDETERMINED" status. The first 3 paragraphs are as follows, with much more to read there:
quote:
Origins: On 3 February 2015, the website Daily Caller published an article titled "Obama Admin Grants Immunity to CDC Scientist That Fudged Vaccine Report ... Whistleblower Plans to Testify Before Congress." The claims it contained subsequently circulated across alternative health blogs, and were unique in part because no other outlet reported anything remotely resembling them prior to the article. The background of the piece entailed a controversy that began in August 2014, when Centers for Disease Control researcher Dr. William Thompson was identified by vaccine opponents in a series of claims regarding 2004 study. Thompson later confirmed he had expressed reservations about omission of data from the research in question in a larger statement. And while he was dubbed a "CDC whistleblower," language used by Thompson in the statement appeared to contradict two aspects of that claim. First, Thompson stated he was neither informed nor did he consent to the "whistleblowing" in question the scientist instead described somewhat of an ambush. Secondly, Thompson denied he'd been sanctioned to any degree within the CDC:
Quote from Thompson, etc. follows. Moose
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 826 by Asgara, posted 07-13-2015 11:10 PM | | Asgara has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 829 of 930 (762610)
07-13-2015 11:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 826 by Asgara
07-13-2015 11:10 PM
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Re: CDC scientist admits to fudging research
Yes and Snopes isn't exactly a supporter either. But Thompson still claims he's told the truth about research fraud at CDC:
CDC Scientist Still Maintains Agency Forced Researchers To Lie About Safety Of Mercury Based Vaccines by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
I am, now and have always been fiercely pro vaccine. I had all six of my children vaccinated. I believe that vaccines have saved the lives of hundreds of millions of humans over the past century and that broad vaccine coverage is critical to public health. That’s why I want our vaccines to be as safe as possible. The new revelations in the following article support what I have been saying for eight years: Thimerosal is brain poison. When you vaccinate, always ask for Thimerosal-free vaccine, which are now available for virtually all vaccinations on the CDC schedule. A senior CDC vaccine safety scientist, Dr. William Thompson, has invoked the protection of the Federal Whistleblower Statute following the release of his taped conversations disclosing pervasive corruption within CDC’s Vaccine Safety Division. Dr. Thompson, a sixteen year veteran and a senior scientist at CDC’s Immunology Safety Office is currently employed at CDC’s National Center for Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities. Thompson is an author of two of the three epidemiological studies on American population touted by CDC to prove the safety of Thimerosal against developmental disabilities. Thimerosal is a controversial mercury based vaccine preservative that research scientists and vaccine safety advocates have connected to the epidemic of brain disorders in children. The vaccine industry’s foremost spokesman and the world’s premier champion for Thimerosal in vaccines, Dr. Paul Offit, stated in 2008 that Dr. Thompson’s wonderful 2007 study was the definitive study on Thimerosal safety. But Thompson now says that his bosses at CDC pressured him to alter the results of that study to conceal Thimerosal’s risks. Dr. Thompson says that his superiors at the CDC Developmental Disabilities Branch pressured him to manipulate the study’s findings and to bury the links between Thimerosal and brain damage. In response to this pressure, the published version downplayed data showing that Thimerosal causes Tics, a family of grave neurological injuries — including Tourette’s Syndrome — that are associated with Autism. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 826 by Asgara, posted 07-13-2015 11:10 PM | | Asgara has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 830 of 930 (762611)
07-13-2015 11:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 824 by Faith
07-13-2015 11:04 PM
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Re: CDC scientist admits to fudging research
William THompson has official whistleblower status from the Obama administration ... Well, this appears to be nonsense. Lots of crankish websites say so, but I can find no evidence for it; and to become an official whistleblower you have to file a formal complaint, here, alleging retaliation/discrimination by your employer. The crux of the form is this bit:
quote:
PART 3 - ALLEGATION OF DISCRIMINATION/RETALIATION [...] 21. What are the actions or events that you are reporting to OSHA?* (You may check one or more of the boxes below, and or describe the action(s) in the space provided.) Termination Denial of Benefits Failure Hire / Re-hire Threat to Take any of the Above Actions Discipline Failure to Promote Harassment Other (please describe)
Now, Thompson does not allege any harassment/discrimination. On the contrary, he states: "My colleagues and supervisors at the CDC have been entirely professional since this matter became public. In fact, I received a performance-based award after this story came out. I have experienced no pressure or retaliation and certainly was not escorted from the building, as some have stated."
... and plans to testify to Congress about manipulating research Well, he hasn't, has he? A year later.
... about manipulating research on the effects of vaccines in African American children. The film shows that he was recorded in a phone conversation admitting that the CDC manipulated research. That's not really what he says happened. Which is why that's not a quote.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 824 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 11:04 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 843 by Faith, posted 07-14-2015 8:54 AM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 831 of 930 (762612)
07-14-2015 12:24 AM
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more on Thompson
Another Page on William Thompson After six months and nearly one billion tweets on Twitter, it took a media frenzy over a small measles outbreak in California at the beginning of 2015 to draw the attention of some in the national media to finally start reporting on the significance of the CDC Whistleblower story from the summer of 2014. Patrick Howley of The Daily Caller has reported that the Obama administration has granted whistleblower immunity to Dr. William Thompson, a senior epidemiologist at the CDC who co-authored and published research on the MMR vaccine for the CDC back in 2004. His decision to become a whistleblower and reveal data that was concealed by the CDC linking the MMR vaccine to autism among African American boys was revealed during the summer of 2014. In his report, Howley links to a letter published on the Natural News website from the summer of 2014 sent by Dr. Thompson to then-CDC director Dr. Julie Gerberding in February 2004, where he expressed his concerns to Dr. Gerberding about how the CDC was concealing data linking the measles MMR vaccine to autism. (Letter here.) There's a ten minute video to watch. ABE: Here's Thompson's official statement I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed. I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits. My concern has been the decision to omit relevant findings in a particular study for a particular sub group for a particular vaccine. There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 832 of 930 (762613)
07-14-2015 12:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 831 by Faith
07-14-2015 12:24 AM
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Re: more on Thompson
See, the Daily Caller's story is nonsense. There's not even really such a thing as "whistleblower immunity". Someone who has actually participated in a crime could get immunity from prosecution in return for testimony. This has not happened. A whistleblower is entitled to protection from harassment and reprisals from his bosses, which also, according to Thompson, hasn't happened. Here's snopes again. Did you even read the letter? 'Cos the statement in your quote about what it says is a flat lie.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 831 by Faith, posted 07-14-2015 12:24 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 833 of 930 (762614)
07-14-2015 1:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 831 by Faith
07-14-2015 12:24 AM
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Re: more on Thompson
I think that Dr Adequate's point that Kennedy's version of what Thompson says disagrees with Thompson's own version deserves more exposure. Kennedy says
But Thompson now says that his bosses at CDC pressured him to alter the results of that study to conceal Thimerosal’s risks. Dr. Thompson says that his superiors at the CDC Developmental Disabilities Branch pressured him to manipulate the study’s findings and to bury the links between Thimerosal and brain damage. In response to this pressure, the published version downplayed data showing that Thimerosal causes Tics, a family of grave neurological injuries — including Tourette’s Syndrome — that are associated with Autism.
And a lot more that is not substantiated. All Thompson says is:
I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.
By my understanding it was also the case that the effect was weak, and quite possibly due to chance (if you look for enough correlations you will eventually find one). Finding an increased risk for one subgroup is very different from finding a general risk. Suppressing a weak result that is likely a false positive is a lot different from suppressing all undesirable results. In all, with that understanding, Thompson does not allege any serious wrongdoing at CDC, just a disagreement on what should be published. And if he really was a whistleblower and really did have whistleblower protection, it is very hard to see why he would suppress most of the story in his statement.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 831 by Faith, posted 07-14-2015 12:24 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 834 of 930 (762617)
07-14-2015 1:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 823 by Faith
07-13-2015 10:45 PM
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Re: "parts per billion"
Isn't it odd that we don't have a proper citation for even one of these papers ? It's not as if the JAMA paper is hard to find. Only one paper came up when I searched for Engley as an author (from 1948-1959). But Engley is not the lead researcher, and there is no hint of serious toxicity in the part freely available. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 823 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 10:45 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 835 of 930 (762618)
07-14-2015 2:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 802 by JonF
07-13-2015 9:23 AM
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JonF writes:
quote:
I don't see the death count onthe preview page.
If you look at the bottom of the first page of the abstract, it discusses the necropsies done: "Necropsies were obtained in sixteen of the ninety-two fatal cases."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 802 by JonF, posted 07-13-2015 9:23 AM | | JonF has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 836 of 930 (762619)
07-14-2015 2:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 805 by Faith
07-13-2015 10:38 AM
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Faith responds to me:
quote:
Dr. Adequate's post had no link in it. The title of the study, but no link.
Incorrect. The "*sigh*" and the "*sigh again*" were both links. You responded to both of those posts, Faith. Why didn't you click on the links?
Rrhain
Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 805 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 10:38 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 842 by Faith, posted 07-14-2015 8:34 AM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 837 of 930 (762620)
07-14-2015 2:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 807 by Faith
07-13-2015 10:54 AM
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Faith writes:
quote:
Again, you are all trusting in the very studies the movie shows to have been falsified
Incorrect. The movie shows no such thing. If you disagree, then bring forward the specifics you think are relevant.
quote:
the barrage of accusations and "facts" from the corrupted research is irrelevant.
It's all a conspiracy? It's a very simple question, Faith. I've asked it of you multiple times. Why do you refuse to answer? What more do you need? What would it take for you consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong? Be specific.
Rrhain
Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 807 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 10:54 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 838 of 930 (762621)
07-14-2015 3:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 810 by Faith
07-13-2015 11:30 AM
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Faith writes:
quote:
This time through the movie I get the impression that refrigeration is the method of preservation of choice, not additives at all.
Refrigeration does not stop microbial growth. It can slow it down, but it doesn't kill any contaminants that are in the vaccine. In the 1920s, a vaccination campaign was done in Bundaberg, Australia. The vaccine was contaminated with staph and despite the fact that the first 21 children injected from the bottle in question were fine, another 21 were injected later and 12 died. It led to the standards that vaccine must have preservatives to prevent microbial growth:
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228 Or is the FDA part of the conspiracy?
Rrhain
Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 810 by Faith, posted 07-13-2015 11:30 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 839 of 930 (762622)
07-14-2015 3:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 813 by JonF
07-13-2015 12:59 PM
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JonF writes:
quote:
It does appear (see above) that 22 already severely ill people did die after tremendously large doses of thimerosal.
Yes, but they were dying from the meningitis. The thimerosal didn't kill them. 92 of the 144 in question died. The reason they were injected with thimerosal is because it is an antimicrobial agent and since the patients were dying left and right, a desperation attempt was made and it didn't work. The dose given was well below the toxic dosage. It was way beyond what is given in vaccine, but it still wasn't a toxic dose.
Rrhain
Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 813 by JonF, posted 07-13-2015 12:59 PM | | JonF has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 847 by JonF, posted 07-14-2015 9:36 AM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Re: Determining correlation
I was actually wondering if you could prove that there was not a relationship
You have how this work backwards. If you assert something it is incumbent on you to provide the evidence. Not me to disprove. Also, how does one prove there is not a relationship between the two. If I tried to do that you would just find more wiggle room. Now how about you show the relationship between the two.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 821 by Dogmafood, posted 07-13-2015 7:55 PM | | Dogmafood has replied |
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