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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 594 of 675 (762360)
07-11-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by ringo
07-11-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Of course books and persons do habitually "sit" in different ways, the one nonbiologically and the other biologically. But I'm tired of this semantic nonsense ringo, you seem to be determined to twist whatever anyone says. Christians experience the actual presence of God at times and you apparently don't want to know about it. So OK, don't know about it then.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 596 of 675 (762368)
07-11-2015 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by ringo
07-11-2015 12:39 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
"most Christians?" Weird. He has a new glorified body but He DOES have a body, which ought to make him "biologically alive" in any reasonable sense. He said He's not a spirit, He ate a fish in His resurrection body, how much more biological can you get?

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 Message 595 by ringo, posted 07-11-2015 12:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 598 by ringo, posted 07-11-2015 1:12 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 599 of 675 (762375)
07-11-2015 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by ringo
07-11-2015 1:12 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Yes, he was biologically alive after the resurrection but only until the ascension. It doesn't make much sense to me that he would still be eating and sleeping today.
What makes sense to YOU isn't something you should be relying on for understanding scripture. Why would He go to such lengths to prove He could eat a fish in His resurrection body if He was not going to continue the practice after His ascension? THAT's what makes no sense. What makes sense is that He was teaching the disciples what to expect of their own glorified state in heaven with Him after the universal resurrection. I don't know about sleeping, nothing is said about that and I would expect there is no sleep in the glorified state myself, but that's just a guess; but eating, yes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 601 of 675 (762388)
07-11-2015 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by ringo
07-11-2015 1:12 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Job, some 2000 years BC, said he knew his Redeemer was alive, and he expected to see Him in His body standing on the earth at the end, Job himself expecting to be resurrected and in his own body at the same time:
Job 19:25-27
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Nothing about eating and sleeping but a clear image of a bodily Redeemer, whom Job would have understood to be God Himself in the flesh.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 607 of 675 (762491)
07-12-2015 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Phat
07-12-2015 6:43 PM


Re: Kinfolk Cant Cut It
I think it needs to be pointed out that in ancient Israel there was a custom or law that gave responsibility to near kin to "redeem" people they were related to, and I'm not sure what all circumstances were involved, but it's an important part of the story of Ruth. She was a Moabite woman who came to Israel with her Israelite mother-in-law Naomi, both having lost their husbands and seeking to make their lives in Israel. Ruth gave up her Moabite gods for the God of Israel and went out to glean grain in the fields to feed her and Naomi.
She learns that as a relative of the owner of the field, Boaz, she can become his wife through this "kinsman redeemer" custom and presents herself to him for that purpose. He says there is another man who is a closer kinsman who should be given the opportunity to marry her if he wants to, and that kinsman turns it down, so Boaz marries her.
They become the parents of Obed who is the father of Jesse who is the father of David, in other words the line from which Jesus is eventually born. I've been taught this story many times as not only a story about the line of ancestors to Christ but about the role of the Kinsman Redeemer as a type of Christ.
So the RIGHT Kinsman CAN cut it, Phat. Jesus IS our kinsman as we are adopted into His family and redeemed by Him, the ultimate Kinsman Redeemer.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 610 of 675 (762550)
07-13-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Mal
07-13-2015 10:55 AM


Re: Jesus is alive
I was an atheist until my mid forties. I grew up in a nominally Christian society of course, even went to church as a child but didn't really understand or believe any of it and declared myself an atheist at age fifteen. I didn't truly believe until I was converted some thirty years later. Yes you do have to believe the Bible is the word of God, and God Himself gives us that recognition, but if you don't you don't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 10:55 AM Mal has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 624 of 675 (762589)
07-13-2015 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by Mal
07-13-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
I was an atheist until my mid forties. I grew up in a nominally Christian society of course, even went to church as a child but didn't really understand or believe any of it and declared myself an atheist at age fifteen. I didn't truly believe until I was converted some thirty years later.
This does fit in with the theory very well. In a nominally Christian society I am sure you would be very aware of Jesus and the Bible. If you were brought up in a nominally Muslim society (if that exists), you would be aware of Muhammad, the Qur'an, and Allah.
Yes you do have to believe the Bible is the word of God, and God Himself gives us that recognition,
I hope God offers this recognition to all of us sometime in our lives.
If you really hope that, if you really want to recognize the Bible as God's word, you don't have to wait for God to transform you, all you have to do is decide to believe it and act on it. If you did that I have no doubt God would follow up with the supernatural part of it.
Growing up in a Christian society means very little about what you end up believing. I knew of Jesus of course but had no idea what made Him our Savior, how He'd died for our sins and so on, the basic gospel in other words. I'd missed that completely in my early church experience and had to learn it all from scratch when I did become a believer. My parents never went to church and never talked about God or Christ.
During my thirties, in the Seventies, I had friends who had joined every kind of Eastern religion and cult, but none who had become a Christian. One became a Zen Buddhist priestess and was still practicing that when I was in touch with her a few years ago. Others had joined this or that organization of some Hindu guru or other. At one of my favorite hangouts I met people who were followers of the Seth Books, Urantia, A Course in Miracles, a channeled entity whose name I forget, and I met professional astrologers and tarot card readers. Into the eighties I did meet one Christian. He was quite the unusual thing. I think he prayed for me.

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 Message 619 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 1:15 PM Mal has replied

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 Message 629 by Mal, posted 07-16-2015 6:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 631 of 675 (762867)
07-16-2015 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Mal
07-16-2015 6:09 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
Well, I suppose you are right, even the Koran can be used to prove itself. How about the facts, though, that it pretends to be an addition or correction to the Bible while getting many of the Biblical personalities mixed up with each other, insisting God has no Son when the Bible says He does, calling Jesus a prophet when the Bible identifies Him as God, renaming God as "Allah" which is the former name of the Arabic moon god while the Bible identifies God over and over as Jehovah (I Am that I Am, or the self-existent One or the Uncreated God) and so on, besides clearly advocating that Muslims do a good work when they kill Jews and Christians. I'm sure the devil nevertheless creates feelings and proofs for his Islamic invention so I can't blame people who don't know the true God for falling for it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 632 of 675 (762869)
07-16-2015 9:48 PM


Jar is giving his usual weird interpretation of the Bible, so although I know it's futile, here's the truth. The Bible is an amazing linear narrative by over forty writers over about 1500 years, in which all the historical reports and all the teachings point to the Messiah Jesus Christ. It does this by showing the sinfulness of all human beings and their need of a Savior as well as by foreshadowing the character of the Savior to come.
The ordinary reader never sees this, it's given by the Holy Spirit to Bible believers. The average reader of the Book of Ruth gets no inkling of the fact that it points to the Messiah. The average reader of the Book of Esther even may miss that it's all about God's actions in human affairs, all aimed toward the salvation of His people. The first few chapters of Genesis set the stage for a future Savior so that all those who reject it in favor of a belief in evolution have obscured the foundation of the whole thing. All the Judges in the Book of Judges and all the prophets from Moses through Samuel through Elijah through Malachi represent and illuminate some facet of the work of the expected Messiah.
Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT). All this is evidence that the whole thing was ultimately authored by God Himself.
When Jesus comes He is the fulfillment of all those pointers in the Old Testament. In the book of Luke he explains to the travelers on the road to Emmaus that all the scripture points to the Messiah. Not many understood their own scriptures so missed it at the time, but a few did get it: Anna and Simeon who spent their lives in prayer and worship represent those who understood the Times. Again, putting it all together as the seamless whole it really is takes the guidance of the Holy Spirit who is given to those who believe. The unconverted mind will never get it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 637 of 675 (762908)
07-17-2015 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by ringo
07-17-2015 11:54 AM


Faith writes:
Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT).
ringo writes:
I think Peter said practically the opposite:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
That isn't the passage I had in mind, but this one:
1 Peter 1:10 -12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
They had to "search diligently" to get a basic understanding of their own prophecies, the coming of Christ, the timing of His coming and the meaning of His salvation, which they could see was given to a people in the far future and not themselves. Even the angels are said not to understand these things but desire to look into them.
ringo writes:
Prophecy isn't of much use if people don't understand it. In fact, the prophets were mostly telling people what they already knew but didn't want to hear.
That's true of their indictment of the Israelites for their failures to keep God's Law, but not of their foreshadowings of future events. It is very clear in the New Testament how little was understood by the majority, and even the disciples didn't fully grasp the prophecies. Even John the Baptist didn't since he had to ask if Jesus was really the one prophesied or should they wait for another.
Prophecy is at least there for us to look back on and that alone should make us appreciate how the Bible is God's word, showing a knowledge of the meaning of events that is above the knowledge of all its human participants.
But also in the case of so many missing the time of the first coming of Christ it serves as a reminder to stay alert to the signs of the second coming so we won't miss that one.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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