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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Is it logical for the Creator of all seen and unseen to not know the future? Is there any particular reason that we dare imagine a God who not only does not know the future but is essentially amoral? Not personable? Not only is it logical it is supported by the Bible. You may have heard of that book. In some Bible stories the God character does not only not know the future but does not know the present. Also in some Bible stories the God character is certainly not personable, and in fact is aloof, apart and does not interact with any of his creations. And many if not most of the God characters are at best amoral and often down right immoral.
Phat writes: And yet humans are supposed to correct this God when God gets something wrong!! Unbelievable! Again, the Bible says that is what we are supposed to do.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
jar writes: I see no freewill in your scenario unless we can decide to take the right path and God be wrong. Like I said:
quote: My scenario includes "making a decision based upon your own personal reasoning abilities."If you have a different definition of freewill, then yes, your interpretation will be different. But then... we're simply not talking about the same thing.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
PaulK writes: To view "the future" there must be a singular "the future" rather than a big mess of "might-be"s. And that's the point. And I agree with you. My point is that we don't yet have the ability to know which way is "the way it actually is." How do you test or verify such a thing? Without that ability, without that verification... it could be either way. Perhaps there is a big mess of "might-be's" that are perfectly within the capabilities of an omniscient creator to know all of them... and which ones will be taken given the starting conditions. Or maybe not. I agree that "if not" then you're right.I'm just saying that I don't see why your way of viewing the future must be the way things actually are. Then again... maybe there's even a third or fourth or more ways that neither of us has had the intelligence to think up as well...
Which is what I was describing. The future must be as fixed as the past for it to be possible to view it. Right. Like I was saying... I hope it certainly is fixed for a lot of things... like choosing my mortgage rate, and choosing my wife, and a whole bunch of other important stuff. Maybe on some level, it's just as fixed for the unimportant stuff... I just don't care to focus on the intricacies to figure out what's causing it to be fixed on that level. Therefore... maybe we just haven't played things out yet. Freewill... because we're making decisions based on our own personal reasoning skills.But fixed... because we would always make the same choice based on the same initial conditions. Based on that setup... we could have a being that could view the future without interfering with our personal reasoning skills... our freewill. I mean, I know that I will choose a mortgage rate of 2.5% over 3.0%.Every time I buy a house. Any day of the year. Any day in the future. Does that mean I don't have free will?But I'm the one who made the decision to always take the lowest interest rate...
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Is it logical for the Creator of all seen and unseen to not know the future? Is there any particular reason that we dare imagine a God who not only does not know the future but is essentially amoral? Not personable? Gen 18:20-21
quote: So much for "all-knowing", no?
And yet humans are supposed to correct this God when God gets something wrong!! Unbelievable! Abraham goes on to plead with the Lord to spare Sodom for the sake of the righteous people that might live there and he ends up changing the Lord's mind.
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
My scenario includes "making a decision based upon your own personal reasoning abilities." Except you have not shown any way that could even be possible if the decision is already known. You might think it was your own personal reasoning abilities but if the outcome was already foreknown then I see no way your belief could be factual.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im not talking about the character in the book...im talking about GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen...whom you supposedly believe in.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Knowing which ones "will be" WOULD be knowing "the future". So no.
quote: It's the only way to view "the future", because you can't view something that doesn't exist. And that's all that matters to my position. I won't go into the free will stuff because my views are quite different from those who are making free will arguments.
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LOL
But what can a Christian God belief be based on other than the characters in the book. But if the God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, why would it favor humans over pod scum?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jon Inactive Member |
Sometimes a person looks at a situation and imagines how it will play out.
Sometimes the person is wrong. Sometimes they are right. On the occasion that they are right, do we regard the actors as having no free will? Do they have freewill only so long as absolutely no one could possibly look at the situation and imagine its outcome?Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I limit my own freewill in that IF I choose Yes I couldnt possibly have chosen No.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Jon Inactive Member |
Huh?
My questions were about a hypothetical observer. Your answer is all about you.Love your enemies!
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
What an odd question. Do you think that guessing correctly is the same as knowing ? If someone wins the lottery does that mean that they knew in advance which numbers would come up ?
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Jon Inactive Member |
Do you think that guessing correctly is the same as knowing ? No.
If someone wins the lottery does that mean that they knew in advance which numbers would come up ? No. "You will drop the ball". If you drop the ball I am right. If you don't I am wrong. It doesn't really matter how I arrived at my supposition, it is right or wrong based on how it accords with unfolding reality.Love your enemies!
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Then you have the answer.
quote: In the same way that it doesn't matter if you rigged the lottery or just got lucky ? It isn't about being right on occasion. It's about being infallibly right. And guesses aren't infallibly right.
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Jon Inactive Member |
In the same way that it doesn't matter if you rigged the lottery or just got lucky ? Rigging the lottery is not arriving at a supposition; it's creating a reality. I don't think anyone in the debate is considering whether a problem of free will exists because God creates the future as He would like it to be. Because obviously such a universe would lack free will and there would be no debate.
It isn't about being right on occasion. It's about being infallibly right. And guesses aren't infallibly right. The intensified version of being right on occasion is being right on all occasions, not being infallibly right. One's guesses may be right on all occasions even if their guesses are just guesses, and having been 100% correct in all past guesses does not necessitate the next guess being accurate. In other words, being a good guessereven a really good guesserdoes not make one incapable of error, even if one has thus far not erred.Love your enemies!
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