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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 181 of 466 (765450)
07-29-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by NoNukes
07-29-2015 12:46 PM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
From Tom Brady:
I am very disappointed by the NFL’s decision to uphold the 4 game suspension against me. I did nothing wrong, and no one in the Patriots organization did either.
Despite submitting to hours of testimony over the past 6 months, it is disappointing that the Commissioner upheld my suspension based upon a standard that it was probable that I was generally aware of misconduct. The fact is that neither I, nor any equipment person, did anything of which we have been accused. He dismissed my hours of testimony and it is disappointing that he found it unreliable.
I also disagree with yesterdays narrative surrounding my cellphone. I replaced my broken Samsung phone with a new iPhone 6 AFTER my attorneys made it clear to the NFL that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward, nor was I made aware at any time during Mr. Wells investigation, that failing to subject my cell phone to investigation would result in ANY discipline.
Most importantly, I have never written, texted, emailed to anybody at anytime, anything related to football air pressure before this issue was raised at the AFC Championship game in January. To suggest that I destroyed a phone to avoid giving the NFL information it requested is completely wrong.
To try and reconcile the record and fully cooperate with the investigation after I was disciplined in May, we turned over detailed pages of cell phone records and all of the emails that Mr. Wells requested. We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone. In short, we exhausted every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time. Regardless, the NFL knows that Mr. Wells already had ALL relevant communications with Patriots personnel that either Mr. Wells saw or that I was questioned about in my appeal hearing. There is no smoking gun and this controversy is manufactured to distract from the fact they have zero evidence of wrongdoing.
I authorized the NFLPA to make a settlement offer to the NFL so that we could avoid going to court and put this inconsequential issue behind us as we move forward into this season. The discipline was upheld without any counter offer. I respect the Commissioners authority, but he also has to respect the CBA and my rights as a private citizen. I will not allow my unfair discipline to become a precedent for other NFL players without a fight.
Lastly, I am overwhelmed and humbled by the support of family, friends and our fans who have supported me since the false accusations were made after the AFC Championship game. I look forward to the opportunity to resume playing with my teammates and winning more games for the New England Patriots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 07-29-2015 12:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 07-29-2015 3:30 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 466 (765458)
07-29-2015 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by xongsmith
07-29-2015 2:13 PM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
Very interesting. Any comments?
ABE:
A couple of Tom's denials appear to be very carefully worded. Perhaps I am nit picking too closely.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by xongsmith, posted 07-29-2015 2:13 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by AZPaul3, posted 07-29-2015 9:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 183 of 466 (765487)
07-29-2015 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by NoNukes
07-29-2015 3:30 PM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
A couple of Tom's denials appear to be very carefully worded. Perhaps I am nit picking too closely.
Yes, they are and, no, you're not. Remember this statement has been gone over by at least a half-dozen lawyers and probably twice that many para-legals. It is hard to sound sincere and natural with everyone nitpicking over the tone and content of every phrase to be sure no misunderstanding could arise.
This thing has become laughably stupid. Whether he did or didn't makes no difference anymore. I feel for the guy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 07-29-2015 3:30 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 07-30-2015 8:23 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 184 of 466 (765497)
07-30-2015 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by AZPaul3
07-29-2015 9:33 PM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
AZPaul3 writes:
This thing has become laughably stupid. Whether he did or didn't makes no difference anymore. I feel for the guy.
Here in New England I think we almost all feel for the guy, but interestingly, yesterday's Boston talk radio was all over the place and mostly contradictory. A common response was castigation of the comments and actions of Kraft, Brady and Belichick, followed by strong expressions of belief that there was no proof of any tampering and that the suspension should be rescinded.
It takes 24 owners to remove a commissioner, and there are a number of owners who don't like Kraft and are enjoying his current travails, but I do believe that Goodell has signed his own death warrant. It could take two or three years, maybe longer, but his days are numbered, even though that number may be around a thousand. It may even take an unusual form, where instead of Goodell's removal the powers of the commissioner are restructured and redistributed. It will have to involve the collective bargaining agreement with the NFLPA, which runs through 2020, so things should definitely happen by 2020. The reason things could happen before 2020 is because if Goodell sees the handwriting on the wall that the new collective bargaining agreement will emasculate the powers of the commissioner, he may be willing to negotiate a change to the current agreement earlier.
Tom Brady says that his equipment guys do an excellent job preparing the footballs for each week's game, and that when he picks out the prepped footballs that he wants for the game, in his mind they're perfect and he doesn't want them changed in any way. I think anyone who has played a sport at a high level and understands how important it is to have equipment you feel comfortable with will strongly identify at a gut level with what Tom Brady is saying and knows that this is a very honest and sincere expression. Conspiring with his equipment guys to adjust the pressure of footballs he already thinks are perfect makes no sense at all. What he wants is for his equipment guys to deliver footballs to him for inspection that are within league rules 12.5 to 13.5 psi so that the refs won't change them.
About the destroyed cell phone, that's a complete red herring. The NFL has the cells phones of the equipment guys. If Brady sent them texts about football pressure, or if they had sent him texts about football pressure, then those texts would have been on those cell phones. The NFL didn't need Brady's cell phone, they were advised before it was destroyed that it would not be provided to them under any circumstances, and given the history of failure of sports organizations for keeping secure information secure, this seems extremely prudent.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by AZPaul3, posted 07-29-2015 9:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by AZPaul3, posted 07-30-2015 8:57 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 185 of 466 (765499)
07-30-2015 8:51 AM


Why is any of this considered news or found anywhere but the check-out tabloids?
I still don't understand how any of this ever reached a level worthy of reporting or "being considered news"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 186 of 466 (765500)
07-30-2015 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Percy
07-30-2015 8:23 AM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
...I do believe that Goodell has signed his own death warrant. It could take two or three years, maybe longer, but his days are numbered, even though that number may be around a thousand.
Then he may outlast most of the players on the field last season. He and the owners may not find this all that disagreeable.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 07-30-2015 8:23 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 187 of 466 (765503)
07-30-2015 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
07-28-2015 6:08 PM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
Your last message said the phone was a red herring, and I completely agree with that.
My thoughts on your cell-phone questions (just thoughts, I don't know-for-sure any of this). These are my current understandings, if anyone else knows differently, please feel free to correct me:
Is it common for people to destroy their old cell phones after getting a new one?
Not for normal folks, no. Here's what usually happens:
-hand me down to other family member/friend
-sits around in junk drawer
-recycled at Best Buy
-garbaged
...whether or not the phone gets wiped before hand (simple factory-reset type of thing) is user-dependent.
Do cell phones really remember every text you ever sent?
Depends on the cell phone and the software it's running on.
Older ones - yes, until memory limitations are met
Newer ones - I don't think so, I believe they have built-in default time limits now (ie - only kept for a year or so, maybe a month... depends on software used)
Can you delete an old text message, or is it just removed from the list but remains in memory?
If you delete an old text message, it's deleted from your phone. Like putting a file into the recycling bin and then emptying the recycling bin on your PC.
Like your PC... there are some ways to recover deleted things that have varying results.
But, really, this doesn't matter at all.
Every message you send to/from your phone goes through the phone company database as well.
When you delete a message from your phone, it definitely does not delete it from the phone company's database.
The phone company never deletes their database.
That's why courts subpoena cell phone records (including text messages) from the phone company and not from you and your phone directly.
In this sense, you are completely correct when you say that destroying Brady's cell was a red herring. If any text messages were required by police, they could (even now) still get them from Brady's phone company.
Does that text message history go away when you get a new cell phone, or does it transfer over like your contact list?
I do not believe it transfer's over like your contact list.
However, newer and newer phones and transferring-software may be correcting this and perhaps now such things are transferred over if you're going from iPhone 5 to iPhone 6 or Android phone to Android phone... these things would not be copied over if you're going cross-platform (contact list can sometimes still be transferred cross-platform, but I doubt text-history would at this point).
Given that Brady's cell phone could contain confidential financial and legal information, do lawyers perhaps always advise clients with significant net worths to destroy their old cell phones?
Sounds like a prudent procedure to include if you ask me.
Things like text-messaging, though, would still leave a copy with the phone company.
If you send text-messages through an app (say, like Viber or Snapchat or even Twitter) your phone company does not have a record of such texts. However, those individual companies themselves would have their own never-deleted database of everything you send/receive that could be subpoena-ed by police and such.
Therefore, it's possible that police want to look at the phone to know what companies they should send subpoenas to.
If they don't find what they're looking for at the phone company, they may not know if Tom has an account with any other messaging app (probably hundreds of possibilities, but mainly in the 10-15 range of popular ones?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 07-28-2015 6:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 07-30-2015 11:31 AM Stile has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 466 (765514)
07-30-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Stile
07-30-2015 9:34 AM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
In this sense, you are completely correct when you say that destroying Brady's cell was a red herring. If any text messages were required by police, they could (even now) still get them from Brady's phone company.
By the police, yes. But can the NFL obtain such messages without having a court issue a subpoena? If there was any reason to look at Brady's phone, not allowing access and/or destroying the phone would effectively stymie the NFL.
That's why courts subpoena cell phone records (including text messages) from the phone company and not from you and your phone directly.
What does Tom Brady's message say about this? Tom says he contacted the phone company about trying to retrieve the messages from his old phone. It sounds like the attempt was unsuccessful, but tell me what you think.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Stile, posted 07-30-2015 9:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Stile, posted 07-30-2015 11:48 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 189 of 466 (765518)
07-30-2015 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by NoNukes
07-30-2015 11:31 AM


Re: Brady Destroys Cell Phone
NoNukes writes:
But can the NFL obtain such messages without having a court issue a subpoena?
Probably not.
Likely not legally, anyway.
Are they rich/corrupt enough to try to obtain such a thing illegally? For a PR legal matter..? I don't really care
What does Tom Brady's message say about this? Tom says he contacted the phone company about trying to retrieve the messages from his old phone. It sounds like the attempt was unsuccessful, but tell me what you think.
At this time, I don't really care. I was just interested in the procedures surrounding cell phones in the more general sense than this particular situation.
But, since you asked... my initial impression is that he didn't really ask. My second (very quickly after the first) impression is that cell phone companies are shitty to deal with so this very easily could have happened and I wouldn't be surprised.
"Shitty to deal with" = are very large companies which include a lot of HR bloat. That is, the guy-you-get-on-the-phone-when-you-call is likely not very tech-savvy with getting in and out of their internal databases. That would take a higher level security and likely even technical ability. To get to someone who could actually help you would take a great amount of time. Would Tom have the time/resources to spend on tracking this down (or getting someone to track it down for him?) Likely yes. Would he have the desire to do extra-work like that in this situation? I don't see why...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 07-30-2015 11:31 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 190 of 466 (766143)
08-12-2015 8:49 PM


The Judge Cuts to the Chase
This headline from a Boston paper says it all: Judge to NFL: ‘Is there any direct evidence linking Mr. Brady to tampering?’
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 9:38 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 466 (766144)
08-12-2015 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Percy
08-12-2015 8:49 PM


Re: The Judge Cuts to the Chase
Direct evidence - Wikipedia
quote:
Direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion (in criminal law, an assertion of guilt or of innocence) directly, i.e., without an intervening inference. Circumstantial evidence, by contrast, consists of a fact or set of facts which, if proven, will support the creation of an inference that the matter asserted is true.
For example: a witness who testifies that he saw the defendant shoot the victim gives direct evidence. A witness who testifies that he saw the defendant fleeing the scene of the crime, or a forensics expert who says that ballistics proves that the defendant’s gun shot the bullet that killed the victim both give circumstantial evidence from which the defendant’s guilt may be inferred.
Now admittedly the article may have more to say about the quality of the circumstantial evidence, but the claim here is that "the headline...says it all."
Generally speaking, circumstantial evidence is just fine. We tell creationists that quite often.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Percy, posted 08-12-2015 8:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Percy, posted 08-12-2015 10:21 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 192 of 466 (766145)
08-12-2015 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by NoNukes
08-12-2015 9:38 PM


Re: The Judge Cuts to the Chase
If the judge's thinking is anywhere similar to your own there seemed no hint of it. My comment was more directed at people who have been closely following today's news. I was only focusing attention on what I thought was the key question by the judge because I think it best hints at his thinking - the Boston Globe evidently thought so, too.
The judge's questions also provided a few clues to the NFL and to Brady as to how he views certain aspects of the case:
  • The NFL's most recent settlement offer that required Brady to accept the findings of the Wells Report and in effect admit guilt is not a serious settlement offer.
  • The evidence in the Wells Report doesn't support either the conclusions or the punishment (at one point the judge asked, "Is that all you got?").
  • There *was* tampering (some don't think the judge's mind is actually made up about this, but his questions did seem to assume that tampering had actually occurred).
  • Brady should have been more cooperative with the Wells investigatory team.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 9:38 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 10:49 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 193 of 466 (766146)
08-12-2015 10:35 PM


Rolling Stone Chimes In
Roger Goodell vs. Tom Brady: The Ultimate Revenge-of-Mediocrity Story
Contains a good summary of just what was so wrong about BountyGate. The NFL's accusation that the Saints were paying bounties for injuring other players made no sense, and now we can see just how senseless it was.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 11:02 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 466 (766147)
08-12-2015 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Percy
08-12-2015 10:21 PM


Re: The Judge Cuts to the Chase
If the judge's thinking is anywhere similar to your own there seemed no hint of it.
According to the article, the Judge's actual question was whether there was evidence 'directly linking' Brady to tampering. IMO, that is a different question that asking about 'direct evidence'. The NFL's response appears to be to discuss circumstantial evidence and evidence related to Brady's credibility. I don't see any statements from the judge in response to the NFL's proffer, but maybe I missed it.
In any event, what's happening is that the sides are being asked to actively seek settlement, and reminders about the evidence are in order in that context.
The NFL's most recent settlement offer that required Brady to accept the findings of the Wells Report and in effect admit guilt is not a serious settlement offer.
I cannot disagree with that. I don't believe either sides initial offers represent serious attempts to settle the case, but the NFLs position is clearly not a good faith offer. The positions are instead positions from which some movement might happen. What I head on the radio today was that talks were 'productive'.
Edited by NoNukes, :

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Percy, posted 08-12-2015 10:21 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 08-13-2015 8:09 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 466 (766148)
08-12-2015 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Percy
08-12-2015 10:35 PM


Re: Rolling Stone Chimes In
NFL's accusation that the Saints were paying bounties for injuring other players made no sense, and now we can see just how senseless it was.
I did not follow bounty gate very closely, but weren't there coaches and players who admitted to the scheme? I thought def. coordinator Williams fessed up.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 08-12-2015 10:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 08-13-2015 8:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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