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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 211 of 234 (744284)
12-09-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Stile
11-12-2014 10:18 AM


Re: Speaking On Behalf Of Others
Stile writes:
And what do you really think of God?
Im more worried about what He thinks of me! I do think, however, that God desires social communion, interaction(as in our discussions) and action in the form of direct social change.
Stile writes:
Do you think God really cares about what people profess, regardless of their actions? (Are lawyers the most favored of God's people?)
Or do you think God really cares about what people actually do, regardless of what they profess? (Is who we are deep-down what God actually cares about?)
Im leaning more towards the belief that God cares about actions more than professions of belief. In other words, God is not so concerned with people who believe(or don't believe) in Him as much as He is concerned with how people treat each other and what we do versus what we could/should do. (I guess some of jars theology is sticking to me!
Stile writes:
It's a fairly significant difference in what you think about God. So far, you've just been riding a middle road. That maybe sometimes God favors what we profess... as long as it agrees with what Phat thinks God is like. And other times, God favors our actions... as long as those actions coincide with how Phat thinks God is.
Guilty. I most definitely ride a middle road. Although most of my beliefs are formed through daily prayer/meditation and to a lesser extent at church and in communion with others, I often compose answers here at EvC on the fly...without giving them the thought that they may well deserve. These conversations and your responses to them are actually a small part of what my beliefs end up becoming as I mature(hopefully) in life.
Or does it sound like Phat is making himself into God?
jar argues that the God we worship is a God of our imagination and preference more so than the likely GOD which may exist. I consciously don't try to make myself into God, but it may well be that the ideal self that I ascribe to become, coupled with my response to God as I believe GOD to be, may end up manifesting through me in a way such as you describe. Pray that I stay humble and teachable.
Anyway...shall we get back to the topic idea of satan reforming? Of course, in your mind, all concepts are hypothetical anyway....where should we go from here, Stile?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Stile, posted 11-12-2014 10:18 AM Stile has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 212 of 234 (766189)
08-14-2015 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Stile
11-12-2014 10:18 AM


Changing My Mind....Again
Stile writes:
Do you think God really cares about what people profess, regardless of their actions? (Are lawyers the most favored of God's people?)
Or do you think God really cares about what people actually do, regardless of what they profess? (Is who we are deep-down what God actually cares about?)
I have changed my belief...yet again...on this subject. God knows who we are deep down. Better than we know ourselves, even.
I believe that we are incapable of achieving His standards. I think that this whole idea of "making a new franchise" and redactors changing the meaning of scripture is all a lie. I stand on the Gospel of John as much as any of the other Gospels and I believe that we are incapable of behaving as Jesus behaved. God is---above all else---concerned with our honesty. To ourselves and to others. What we do will naturally reflect our progress in this area of communion and confession.
I do not believe that we are expected to approach the standards set by Jesus Christ. I believe that admitting this to ourselves and others is a sign that we are placing ourselves on the altar.
Or does it sound like Phat is making himself into God?
The initial topic is "What if Satan Reformed?" My point in connection with this is that IF Satan reformed, he would not reform by trying his best to become a Saint. He would reform by surrendering.
Edited by Phat, : added emphasis

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Stile, posted 11-12-2014 10:18 AM Stile has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 08-14-2015 12:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 213 of 234 (766190)
08-14-2015 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by jar
11-04-2014 8:22 AM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
jar writes:
even though just one post ago you denied it, the relationship you imagine is your get outta hell free card.
Its not free. Its a costly gift.
You can try your hardest yet you can never earn it.
Not that im suggesting you stop trying to do your best. By all means continue

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 11-04-2014 8:22 AM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 214 of 234 (766202)
08-14-2015 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
08-14-2015 1:34 AM


Re: Changing My Mind....Again
Phat writes:
My point in connection with this is that IF Satan reformed, he would not reform by trying his best to become a Saint. He would reform by surrendering.
So the goal isn't about being good at all? It's about being an obedient slave?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 08-14-2015 1:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 08-14-2015 12:32 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 215 of 234 (766203)
08-14-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by ringo
08-14-2015 12:27 PM


Re: Changing My Mind....Again
So the goal isn't about being good at all? It's about being an obedient slave?
In my view, yes, a delightful slavery to a loving Master. Hard to imagine I suppose. Like Bob Dylan said, "Ya gotta serve somebody," makes all the difference who.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 08-14-2015 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by ringo, posted 08-14-2015 12:46 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 216 of 234 (766204)
08-14-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
08-14-2015 12:32 PM


Re: Changing My Mind....Again
Faith writes:
Like Bob Dylan said, "Ya gotta serve somebody," makes all the difference who.
quote:
"You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride...."
The thing is, it's hard to tell whom you're serving. That's why, "By their works ye shall know them."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 08-14-2015 12:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 08-14-2015 3:09 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 217 of 234 (766209)
08-14-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by ringo
08-14-2015 12:46 PM


Re: Changing My Mind....Again
Ah well, I should have learned by now there's nothing I can say here that won't get a slap in the face for my effort. I know who I'm serving. I also know who you're serving.
ABE: By the way, keeping in mind that the subject of the statement about fruits is false prophets, what fruits do you ascribe to me that you think deserve such nastiness?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by ringo, posted 08-14-2015 12:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 08-15-2015 11:46 AM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 234 (766231)
08-15-2015 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
09-12-2006 8:00 PM


Re: Tit for Tat
Ringo writes:
The whole point of Jesus is that He was like us.
No. First of all, Jesus and Jesus alone was able to deny Himself fully and surrender to His Father.
We have trouble surrendering to eating the last doughnut on the plate or stopping a beer shy of inebriation or going out of our way to help change a tire...for a stranger...in the rain. What I mean by surrender is just that. Stepping off of the throne and surrendering our everloving ego.
No slavery needed.
The thing is, it's hard to tell whom you're serving. That's why, "By their works ye shall know them."
I cant really argue with you there.
My point---if I have one---is that doing good works does not come about through the lie of trying harder. Good works are produced in one who has surrendered. The slavery...if it could be called that...is voluntary. No Master stands ready to whip you should you fail to do your best. Your inner conscience will be your guide...if you have surrendered, satan has no place in you. If satan surrendered, he would again become Lucifer...another angel with unique and special gifts willfully used for the fathers glory.
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 09-12-2006 8:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 7:13 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 08-15-2015 12:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 219 of 234 (766232)
08-15-2015 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
08-15-2015 1:24 AM


Re: Tit for Tat
No slavery needed.
For the record, Christians are often referred to as the Lord's "servants" in scripture, and John MacArthur wrote a book showing that the term in Greek is most often used to refer to slaves. Scripture says believers have been bought by the Lord, in other words we belong to Him. Therefore we are slaves. But His "yoke is easy and His burden is light." We were formerly the slaves of Satan, now we are His. "Ya gotta serve somebody."
The thing is, it's hard to tell whom you're serving. That's why, "By their works ye shall know them."
I cant really argue with you there.
I can. First, the phrase is "by their fruits" not "works" and since when can unbelievers judge believers by any standard anyway? Unbelievers of course can't tell who anybody is serving. It's believers who are counseled to apply this standard. Even Christian works mean nothing to unbelievers. Being nice, "tolerant" of sin, giving money to the poor, that's about the range of works acceptable to unbelievers and you don't need to be a Christian to do those things so it's no standard at all anyway. Denying the Bible and supporting the murder of the unborn or gay "marriage" are good works according to unbelievers, as well as, sadly, some very confused believers.
Teaching people to avoid what the Bible calls sin and warning of judgment to come for unrepented sin is not regarded as a good work, defending the true doctrine is not regarded as a good work, and so on.
As for "fruits," I've seen this standard most tellingly applied to Roman Catholic doctrine as producing bad fruits: celibacy of priests producing molestation of children for instance. Doctrines making the Pope and RC system authoritative over all people have produced millions of murders of dissidents. There's the fruits we should be looking at. Not the sins of individual Christians, for instance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 08-15-2015 1:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 220 of 234 (766239)
08-15-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
08-14-2015 3:09 PM


Re: Changing My Mind....Again
Faith writes:
I know who I'm serving.
quote:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Faith writes:
By the way, keeping in mind that the subject of the statement about fruits is false prophets, what fruits do you ascribe to me that you think deserve such nastiness?
What nastiness? You're the one who claims to "know" whom I'M serving.
But since you ask:
quote:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I don't see a lot of those in you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 08-14-2015 3:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 11:54 AM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 221 of 234 (766240)
08-15-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
08-15-2015 11:46 AM


Re: Changing My Mind....Again
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I don't see a lot of those in you.
Yeah but your eyes are not trustworthy. Got a lot more of those qualities than I used to have, that's for sure, and I'd bet if you detailed exactly what indicates my lack of this or that quality it would be from an unbeliever's perspective as I already discussed, not a believer's. Love for instance is not accepting abortion or gay marriage, it's warning people of God's judgments against that sort of sin. Meekness, for instance, is obedience to God rather than man. Bet that wouldn't be your definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 08-15-2015 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 08-15-2015 12:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 222 of 234 (766241)
08-15-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
08-15-2015 1:24 AM


Re: Tit for Tat
Phat writes:
First of all, Jesus and Jesus alone was able to deny Himself fully and surrender to His Father.
Nonsense. He was reluctant to die on the cross:
quote:
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
And when He was ON the cross:
quote:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was pretty human.
Phat writes:
Good works are produced in one who has surrendered.
More nonsense. Those of you who claim to have surrendered are constantly arguing AGAINST good works.
Phat writes:
No Master stands ready to whip you should you fail to do your best.
But He does stand ready -according to you - to send you to Hell, even if you DO do your best, if you don't PROFESS your surrender.
Phat writes:
If satan surrendered, he would again become Lucifer...another angel with unique and special gifts willfully used for the fathers glory.
Satan always used his gifts for the Father's glory. The Fall of Satan, like the Fall of Man, is a story with a message that fundamentalists choose to ignore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 08-15-2015 1:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 223 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 12:09 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 223 of 234 (766242)
08-15-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ringo
08-15-2015 12:00 PM


Re: Tit for Tat
You have NO clue.
Oh there is no doubt Jesus was fully human, but without our fallen nature. That's a big difference.
What Jesus knew in Gethsemane was coming against Him would have killed YOU just to think it if you'd had to face it. For Jesus who had enjoyed close communion with the Father all His life to be forsaken by Him on the cross was a loss you couldn't even imagine since you never had to experience such a thing.
Nobody argues against good works as the result of salvation, only that they aren't the means of salvation.
And that's absolute nonsense the idea that He sends anyone to Hell at all -- we're all born fit for Hell and send ourselves there, but what He did is die so we don't have to go there. There's certainly no threat of going to Hell once you've received the forgiveness of His death for your sins either.
Your theology is rotten.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 08-15-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 08-15-2015 12:19 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 224 of 234 (766243)
08-15-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
08-15-2015 11:54 AM


Re: Changing My Mind....Again
Faith writes:
... I'd bet if you detailed exactly what indicates my lack of this or that quality it would be from an unbeliever's perspective as I already discussed, not a believer's.
That's exactly the problem. You've constructed a belief system in which you can do no wrong.
Faith writes:
Meekness, for instance, is obedience to God rather than man. Bet that wouldn't be your definition.
Well, of course not. Anybody can be meek toward God. Billions of members of "wrong" religions are meek toward God.
Where meekness is an actual virtue is where it's difficult:
quote:
2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 11:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 225 of 234 (766244)
08-15-2015 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
08-15-2015 12:09 PM


Re: Tit for Tat
Faith writes:
What Jesus knew in Gethsemane was coming against Him would have killed YOU just to think it if you'd had to face it.
At least two others were crucified alongside Jesus. What they faced was greater than what He faced because they had no promise of resurrection.
Faith writes:
For Jesus who had enjoyed close communion with the Father all His life to be forsaken by Him on the cross was a loss you couldn't even imagine since you never had to experience such a thing.
You make Jesus sound like a child who can't stand to be away from mommy for an hour.
Faith writes:
Nobody argues against good works as the result of salvation, only that they aren't the means of salvation.
That's exactly the problem. You treat good works as a natural result of your magical salvation, so you don't have to put any effort into it. I don't even believe in salvation; I treat good works as the right thing to do, for EVERYBODY.
Faith writes:
And that's absolute nonsense the idea that He sends anyone to Hell at all....
Sorry, YOUR nonsense won't fly for anybody but the get-out-of-hell-free crowd. God dug the tiger trap; He's responsible for anybody falling into it.
Faith writes:
Your theology is rotten.
It isn't my theology; it's the Bible's theology, as opposed to your commentators' theology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 12:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 08-15-2015 9:26 PM ringo has replied

  
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