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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 151 of 424 (767275)
08-27-2015 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by kbertsche
08-27-2015 1:47 PM


SCOTUS writes:
"Finally, it must be emphasized that religions, and those who adhere to religious doctrines, may continue to advocate with utmost, sincere conviction that, by divine precepts, same-sex marriage should not be condoned. The First Amendment ensures that religious organizations and persons are given proper protection as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths, and to their own deep aspirations to continue the family structure they have long revered. The same is true of those who oppose same-sex marriage for other reasons."
The question is whether this right of sincerely advocating that same-sex marriage should not be condoned, and seeking to teach these principles, etc., extends to Christian business owners who refuse to provide a service for a gay marriage, or to a public statement of the same beliefs as opposed to merely confining it to their private lives. I think we'll probably find out in the near future, but my reading of that paragraph suggests that where there could be considered to be a direct clash with the civil rights of this new protected class the rights of those holding such religious beliefs will have to give.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2015 1:47 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Bliyaal, posted 08-27-2015 2:38 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 171 by Taq, posted 08-28-2015 6:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 152 of 424 (767276)
08-27-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Dr Adequate
08-27-2015 12:05 PM


And I'm not sure I follow your argument about individual believers. You seem to be saying that we personally should behave and turn our hearts towards what Jesus said about forgiveness, but that we should at the same time direct the State, which is under our command, towards Old Testament notions of retribution.
First, obviously Jesus is not talking to state authorities but to His own personal followers. Right?
Second, it's simply common sense that the criminal justice system couldn't function on such principles as turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, giving the robber your coat after he's stolen your shirt, and so on and so forth. What Jesus taught along these lines is for individuals dealing with individuals.
that an eye for an eye should be the principle that guides the justice system makes sense to me because it is such a perfect statement of justice, but if authorities in that area want to apply principles of mercy based on Jesus' general teachings that's open to discussion.
All I'm saying is that you don't give a murderer the freedom to murder again, which is implied by the idea of turning the other cheek, you prosecute him. Makes perfect sense to me, hits me as extremely absurd that anybody would argue against the basic point I'm making.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 141 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2015 12:05 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 08-28-2015 11:58 AM Faith has replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 153 of 424 (767277)
08-27-2015 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
08-27-2015 2:03 PM


You do understand the difference between advocating and forcing you beliefs on others right?
Are you seriously saying that italian restaurants could refuse to serve black people because the owners think they're all criminals and anyway they don't serve watermelon or fried chicken? If not, what's the difference?

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 Message 151 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 2:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 154 of 424 (767280)
08-27-2015 3:39 PM


Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
So far it seems to be the clerks whose job is to issue marriage licenses where the limitations on Christian freedom are being felt.
That statement by the Supreme Court is clearly meaningless. There is no meaningful right or freedom upheld in allowing acvocacy against gay marriage in private, and the First Amendment never limited religious rights to private occasions. Where the rubber meets the road is where a Christian is asked to do something that violates Christian faith, such as being asked to issue a license for a gay marriage. The context will of course expand as time goes on.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 1:23 AM Faith has replied
 Message 172 by Taq, posted 08-28-2015 6:36 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 155 of 424 (767301)
08-28-2015 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
08-27-2015 3:39 PM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Odd how "religious freedom" is about government workers abusing their position, refusing to do their jobs and denying other people their legal rights. But only when a "Christian" does it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-28-2015 3:01 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:22 AM PaulK has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 156 of 424 (767305)
08-28-2015 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
08-28-2015 1:23 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Per here (in the comments), "In Rowan county, county clerk is an elected position." So it would seem that simply firing her is not an option.
Per Faith's link:
quote:
The American Civil Liberties Union sued her last month on behalf of four couples. U.S. District Judge David Bunning ordered Davis to issue marriage licenses two weeks ago. He later delayed that ruling until Aug. 31 or until the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals issued a ruling. The appeals court did so on Wednesday, denying Davis' appeal.
So, the Clerk Kim Davis is getting sued, and will lose the suit. But maybe she will end up in jail first, on a contempt of court charge. In which case, I presume a deputy clerk will fill the position.
Regardless, it's not going to turn out pretty for Kim Davis, if she persists. And rightfully so.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 157 of 424 (767310)
08-28-2015 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
08-28-2015 1:23 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
This is exactly what the SCOIUS ruling is going to do, drive Christians out of their jobs, their businesses, etc. etc. etc. This is what we've been saying is going to happen and it is starting to happen, starting with Christian clerks whose faith is contradicted by the ruling. It's going to get worse. Christians who truly believe the Bible is God's word will not act in any way that validates gay marriage. Christians put God above the SCOTUS.
The SCOTUS ruling and the Christian casualties as a result of it are the beginning of the attack on Christianity which is only going to get worse and worse in this country. Which I think is what that wager was about with Dr. Adequate. We can wait for more examples but it's already begun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 1:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 AM Faith has replied
 Message 160 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 4:48 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 179 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2015 9:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 158 of 424 (767312)
08-28-2015 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:22 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
The SCOTUS ruling and the Christian casualties as a result of it are the beginning of the attack on Christianity which is only going to get worse and worse in this country. Which I think is what that wager was about with Dr. Adequate. We can wait for more examples but it's already begun.
What's with this talk about 'the beginning of'? Your form of Christianity has been 'under attack' since the enlightenment. Civilised societies have been reigning in the extent of bigotry practiced by religious fundamentalists for centuries, that's how society has progressed.
What's also hasn't changed is the need for fundamentalists to feel persecuted and martyred and how they long for things to worsen and hope for, and contstantly predict, the end of the world in the grimmest possible fashion. And of course they fantasise of being the saved whist all around them burns.
The fact that life constantly improves and that all their predictions fail must be a major disappointment to you.
Just to save you the bother of replying, copy and paste this:
'Boy are you in for a surprise.'
What

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 159 of 424 (767313)
08-28-2015 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Tangle
08-28-2015 4:44 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Laws designed to drive Christians out of their jobs and businesses are a new thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2015 6:52 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 174 by Taq, posted 08-28-2015 6:40 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 160 of 424 (767314)
08-28-2015 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:22 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Sure Faith. You should follow the example of the "godly" Puritans of Maryland. Revolt, repeal the First Amendment, burn down Catholic Churches - I guess you can include Mosques and any other religious establishments you disapprove of - and set up your own tyranny where only "Christians" are allowed to vote or hold office.
Or maybe you should try being a Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 161 of 424 (767315)
08-28-2015 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:46 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
Laws designed to drive Christians out of their jobs and businesses are a new thing.
Get over yourselves, the laws are blind to religion, they're designed to reduce prejudice and bigotry and increase equality of treatment and opportunity - whoever is doing it of whatever religion and none.
And, as has been pointed out to you many, many times, they don't stop you believing and saying what the hell you like - hideous though it might be.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 162 of 424 (767317)
08-28-2015 9:01 AM


I find it strange that here on earth, the religious want to have the greatest freedom possible to deny anyone what they feel they should not have, --- yet instead of a free heaven, --- they say they will be happy living in a God given tyranny that denies all in heaven all freedoms.
Strange how free people want to give up their freedom after death.
Regards
DL

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 12:23 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 163 of 424 (767330)
08-28-2015 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
08-27-2015 2:13 PM


Faith writes:
First, obviously Jesus is not talking to state authorities but to His own personal followers.
Jesus' audience had no influence over the Roman emperor. You DO have influence over your elected representatives. You CAN take responsibility where Jesus audience could not.
Faith writes:
that an eye for an eye should be the principle that guides the justice system makes sense to me because it is such a perfect statement of justice....
Again, that isn't what the Bible says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 2:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 12:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 164 of 424 (767335)
08-28-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Greatest I am
08-28-2015 9:01 AM


Sin is not freedom, it's slavery to the devil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Greatest I am, posted 08-28-2015 9:01 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Greatest I am, posted 08-28-2015 2:08 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 165 of 424 (767338)
08-28-2015 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
08-28-2015 11:58 AM


Are you actually saying that the criminal justice system should turn the other cheek to a criminal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 08-28-2015 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 08-28-2015 12:41 PM Faith has replied

  
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