Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,427 Year: 3,684/9,624 Month: 555/974 Week: 168/276 Day: 8/34 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Passover Mystery
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 3656 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 1 of 80 (76735)
01-05-2004 9:19 PM


Another set of questions that I hope will result in answers.
1) The story of the Passover in Exodus has it that Moses at first declined to talk to Pharaoh as he felt that he would not be listened to. He was right.. Why didn't God talk to Pharaoh directly rather than have Moses do it with no results until innocent people were killed; people that had no power to free the Jews. This rises serious questions about God's intelligence. Any answers?
2) In the story of the Passover it is the "first born" that are slain. Some have developed information that the first nine plaques were of natural origin and may account for Pharaoh's lack of action. None have explained the final plaque the death of the first born. A
natural solution would have it that it was a disease, such as dysentary or something similar to cholera that struck down the "first born of the year" or "newly born". Infants quickly dehydrate and perish when infected. A disease passed to its human hosts by infected food. The Jews did not suffer as they in effect quarrantined themselves in their homes and ate food that the general population would not normally touch.
3) If God didn't do it, and disease germs do not discriminate between first born and others: then the one remaining answer was it was caused by humans who knew who was the first born in Egyptian families; the Hebrew servants. Any answers to this one?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Yaro, posted 01-06-2004 1:03 AM Charles Munroe has not replied
 Message 4 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-06-2004 6:06 AM Charles Munroe has not replied
 Message 5 by Abshalom, posted 01-06-2004 11:57 AM Charles Munroe has not replied
 Message 6 by Prozacman, posted 01-06-2004 1:29 PM Charles Munroe has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6517 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 2 of 80 (76774)
01-06-2004 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Charles Munroe
01-05-2004 9:19 PM


A better question would be why don't the egyptians have a record of the first born dying?
You would think that such a horrific event would bear some mention somewhere. We hava a huge record of egyptian history, everything from sale recipts at the markets, to acounts of grain harvests, and reigns of pharoes. So why on earth is there no mention of any of the 9 plagues?
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-06-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Charles Munroe, posted 01-05-2004 9:19 PM Charles Munroe has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dr Jack, posted 01-06-2004 4:38 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 3 of 80 (76781)
01-06-2004 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Yaro
01-06-2004 1:03 AM


Or any evidence at all that they ever had large numbers of hebrew slaves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Yaro, posted 01-06-2004 1:03 AM Yaro has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6260 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 4 of 80 (76789)
01-06-2004 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Charles Munroe
01-05-2004 9:19 PM


Some have developed information that the first nine plaques were of natural origin and may account for Pharaoh's lack of action.
No. It is an error to confuse speculation with 'information'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Charles Munroe, posted 01-05-2004 9:19 PM Charles Munroe has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 80 (76806)
01-06-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Charles Munroe
01-05-2004 9:19 PM


Why Indeed
Charles Munroe asks, "Why didn't God talk to Pharaoh directly rather than have Moses do it with no results until innocent people were killed?"
Charles: Do you think that it's interesting that up through the "plague" wherein all of Egypt's livestock died, that at the end of each plague episode, the pharoah's "hardened his own heart with stubborness" and did not set the Israelites free? But beginning with the plague of boils (I think this is the 7th plague) wherein the pharoah's magicians could not stand in contest with Moses, because of their affliction by the boils, that all of a sudden it was YHVH who "made the pharoah's heart strong- willed" rather than the pharoah making himself strong-willed. This may be significant in that the story reflects a contest between gods, the pharoah himself being one of the two competing gods, with the court magicians representing the pharoah-god, and Moses and Aaron representing the YHVH-god. Think of it kind of like a WWF or NCAA competition -- my icon is better than your icon, and my team is gonna prove it.
Note again after the locust plague that "YHVH made the pharoah's heart strong-willed, and he did not set the Israelites free." What's up with this? Why is it required that YHVH intervene to make the pharoah resistent? Isn't this kinda like fixing the game?
Then, once again, at the end of Chapter 11, after the first 9 plagues, and after God tells Moses and Aaron to instruct the Israelites to gather up their neighbors' gold and silver, and informing Moses of the impending death of all "the Egyptian firstborn", again "YHVH made Pharoah's heart strong-willed, and he had not set the Israelites free," in effect irreversibly sealing the Egyptians' fate.
So, in answer to your question "why didn't God talk directly to Pharoah," it seems there was some sort of direct, but one-sided communication. It also seems like it was all a set-up contest with the rules skewed to ensure the outcome included the maximum suffering possible by the Egyptian population apparently for their transgression of backing the wrong god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Charles Munroe, posted 01-05-2004 9:19 PM Charles Munroe has not replied

  
Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 80 (76823)
01-06-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Charles Munroe
01-05-2004 9:19 PM


I'll answer; #1. Christians(I was one) would have us believe that God wanted to make examples out of the egyptians, and God wanted to prove his power. But I was taught that Pharoah was'nt approached by God because Pharoah was "sinful" as opposed to Moses & the Jews who were "righteous". #2 Why did God choose to kill all the first-born? I don't know, but I have an Idea that is not fully thought out at this time.: I think it has something to do with child-sacrifice of the first-born son in early Semetic religions, but I'm not sure. #3 Maybe the Hebrews decided to commit mass murder on the first-born sons of the egyptians as their religion produced a kind of mass hysteria today might be classed as a mental-disorder like Sociopathic Disorder, but on a large scale.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Charles Munroe, posted 01-05-2004 9:19 PM Charles Munroe has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Abshalom, posted 01-06-2004 1:59 PM Prozacman has not replied
 Message 8 by Abshalom, posted 01-07-2004 12:26 PM Prozacman has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 80 (76828)
01-06-2004 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Prozacman
01-06-2004 1:29 PM


Prozacman answers question #2--Why did God choose to kill all the first-born?-- "I don't know, but I have an Idea that is not fully thought out at this time.: I think it has something to do with child-sacrifice of the first-born son in early Semetic religions, but I'm not sure."
Pro: Within the context of the Exodus story or within the greater context of Torah, I'm not sure either; but while pondering the question, shouldn't we also consider that the 10th plague included the deaths of all first-born livestock as well as children? So, maybe we should look beyond just "child sacrifice" rites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Prozacman, posted 01-06-2004 1:29 PM Prozacman has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 80 (76981)
01-07-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Prozacman
01-06-2004 1:29 PM


Pro:
I looked into your supposition further, and find you have a very valid point even withing the context of the Exodus texts.
Apparently, there are interpretations of YHVH's intent regarding the 10th plague that posit the killing of the first born cattle was to prevent the Egyptians substitute sacrifice of first born cattle for first born male offspring. This would be like rubbing salt in the wound -- to kill the first born male offspring and then the first born substitute sacrificial cattle as well. Double wammy!
While there are many who will argue that there is no achaeological evidence to back up child sacrifice in Canaan, there is ample reference to such throughout the Tanakh such as Abraham/Isaak, the detailed instructions in Leviticus for substitute cattle sacrifices, and several references in Ezekiel to child sacrifice to Molech.
There is also an indication in Torah that the rite of circumcision may be tied to previous rites of child sacrifice as Moses moves the traditional North African circumcision date from adolescence to eight days after childbirth and declares it a "covenant." (This is a supposition that requires more research.)
Peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Prozacman, posted 01-06-2004 1:29 PM Prozacman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Prozacman, posted 01-07-2004 2:47 PM Abshalom has replied

  
Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 80 (77006)
01-07-2004 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Abshalom
01-07-2004 12:26 PM


I got this idea from reading the texts critically, and sort of combining a general study of levantine & middle-eastern ancient history, although I must caution that I am nowhere near expertise on the matter. It appears that the Egyptians weren't the only ones who substituted a Bull/Cow for a firstborn male child when performing sacrifices to their gods, as you have mentioned regarding the Abe/Isaac story. I have read(somwhere, I'll find it) that not only has the story been changed, redacted, etc. from an original(s?), the particular original(s?) told of how Isaac may have been actually sacrificed, and the verion we have now reflects a change in ancient Hebrew thinking regarding sacrifice to their god! There is some interesting interprtations of the story at this URL: Wikipedia,
and a modern scholar's interp. is forthcoming at thid URL.
I am aware of the verses in Ezekiel which tell of child sarifice to Molech. However, I have also read(somewhere again) that Molech did not exist as a god to the middle-eastern peoples. Perhaps you know something about this? Anyway, I understand that the Israelites were influenced by the Canaanites who did practice child-sacrifice. And it is true, that without exception, every version of Deuteronomy I've read tells of the substitute of animals in the place of the firstborn sons, although the KJV is quite ambiguous(for polemic reasons?). I'll get back to you.
fixed url - the Queen
[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-07-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Abshalom, posted 01-07-2004 12:26 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Abshalom, posted 01-07-2004 5:05 PM Prozacman has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 80 (77033)
01-07-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Prozacman
01-07-2004 2:47 PM


Blood Sacrifice
Pro:
Quoting from your Post #9: "I am aware of the verses in Ezekiel which tell of child sarifice to Molech. However, I have also read(somewhere again) that Molech did not exist as a god to the middle-eastern peoples. Perhaps you know something about this?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Molech was an ancient fire deity, of a common type worshipped throughout Canaan generally, and Phoenicia particularly. Under various names, depending upon the city or country, Molech is essentially identical with Chemosh of Moab, and probably Melqart of Tyre. The general name for this type of fire god used throughout Palestine was Baal, meaning ‘lord.’ Molech was the national deity of the country of Ammon, east of the Jordan, or the Ammonites. Molech was also worshipped by the Israelites on many occasions, much to the distress of the prophets.
According to Jewish tradition, the cult idol of Molech was made of brass, hollow, and with hands so positioned that something laid therein would fall to the fire below. The practice of laying a child across the hands, and thus committing them to the fire, was termed ‘pass through the fire to Molech.’"
For the rest of the article, see: http://www.ancientroute.com/religion/Godsname/molech.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As to the origin of "Molech" I do not know whether it's Canaan, Assyria, or outside the Middle East, but it seems that most sources agree that Molech by his various names is Canaanite, Moabite, Carthagenean, and Phoenecian in origin.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At http://www.btinternet.com/~eleanor.scott there is a very long page with a lot of information on the Eastern Mediterranean region. A ways down the page, under the heading "Sacrifice" you will find this:
"The Carthaginians and other Phoenicians of the fourth and later centuries BC were a cosmopolitan, urbanised people, yet their religion retained a practice that was abhorrent to their Greek and Roman neighbours: they sacrificed their own young children to the gods. (Brown 1991, 13).
A number of Greek and Latin texts dating from the fifth century BC to the fifth century AD survive which refer to infant sacrifice. Shelby Brown has observed that, if the victims are described at all, they are usually said to be one or more of the following: young, male, rich (freeborn, noble), poor, the dedicant's own infant or child, or an infant sold to the dedicant. There are also occasional mentions of the infant being the first-born male or the best-loved (e.g. by Philo and Silius Italicus), and of being sacrificed singly and in huge numbers, in times of personal crisis and in times of war (Brown 1991, 22). In a further useful study of the Phoenician practice, Alexandra Lee notes that the infants were aged between 0-4 years, and they were burnt, possibly whilst drugged or already dead, and their remains collected and placed in cinerary urns along with small trinkets or pottery provided by the parents (Lee 1994, 67; 1997). The pots depicted on sacrificial stelae indicate that there were rituals associated with killing and burying an infant which required planning, preparation and possibly professional assistance, and the parents were careful to add their names and genealogies to the markers in order to announce publicly that they had fulfilled their vow to the gods (Brown 1991, 171, 172).
The ancient historian Diodorus Siculus, writing in the first century BC, discusses Carthaginian sacrifice as a response to war, and offers testimony to the feelings aroused in some parents to the practice. When Agathocles besieged Carthage in 310 BC the Carthaginians decided that the gods must be offended because, during recent sacrifices, noble parents had replaced their own children with secretly purchased substitutes who were clearly being regarded by the gods as less worthy offerings than "best-loved" children. Two hundred noble children were consequently selected for sacrifice and placed in the arms of a large bronze statue of Cronos, from which they fell into a pit of flames (Brown 1991, 23). Clearly that some parents endeavoured to substitute their own children with others' might be held to reveal a society deeply ill at ease with itself and its own religious practices, inasmuch as not all infants were willingly given and that there existed a trade in infants for sacrifice market which originated in the poorer parts of town." Plus additional information regarding human, and specifically child, sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I also found these links interesting regarding our discussion of blood sacrifice:
Sorry, blocked (While you're at this site, click on "Cain's Problem" under "Burnt Offerings.)
and
Sorry, blocked
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me that the authors of the Pentateuch were at least as committed to eradicating child sacrifice from common practice (thank goodness!), whether in Egypt or Canaan, as were the Prophets who repeatedly condemned its apparent repeated resurgences in Israel, Samaria, and Judea.
I guess the only paradox I see in it all is that in today's theology a grain (Cain's) offering is acceptable in leiu of a blood (Abel's) offering. Weird, huh?
Peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Prozacman, posted 01-07-2004 2:47 PM Prozacman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Prozacman, posted 01-08-2004 2:26 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 80 (77165)
01-08-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Abshalom
01-07-2004 5:05 PM


Re: Blood Sacrifice
Very interesting info. on Molech. There's a bunch of reading to do, but you appear to be correct as I have read a little on the gods' Chemosh & Melqart. It seems that all three gods were baal's & Canaanite in origin(?) and had a fetish for burnt children. Correct me if I'm wrong about Melqart. I did a little remedial reading last night on child-sacrifice and found some verses you may be aware of which at least imply the former sacrifice of children on the part of the ancient Jews. First, of course, is the contention that Abraham did sacrifice Isaac, & that the story we have now is a mixture of earlier stories; one of these telling of an actual sacrifice. Another interp. is that the story is a moral tale about how God no longer accepts children & takes animals instead. This may or may not be the case because as it is, other passages like Numbers 18:14-18 tell that the children can be redeemed with a payment of 5 shekels of silver to the priests. Hmm...What if parents didn't have the payment?! Seems the priests had alot of power.
Then there are possibly vague passages like Ex.13.1-2 where the firstborn are "consecrated" to the Lord. You mention that the rite of circumcision and child-sacrifice may have been related; w such passages as Ex.22.29b-30 on the eighth day the firstborn of animals & humans were "given to the Lord", may bear this out. See also Ex. 27.28-29 where humans are " devoted to God for destruction", and Num.18.17-18 where now the service of the Levites in Priesthood is to be done instead of sacrifice of the firstborn. The reference I meant to supply in my previous post for the sacrifice of Isaac is in the notes to Gen.22.1-19, pg. 27 of my New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha(NRSV),Bruce Metzger.Ed.
I'll get back to you. I'm back. Thankyou for the URL's and the info. you've provided. It will be an enjoyable couple of evening hours of reading.
Cain, hmmm... as I understand it even though God accepted Able's sacrifice (a blood sacrifice) over Cain's, Cain was not condemned for the attempt but was told to do right and things would be OK. I have heard an anthropological interpretation of this which basically states that it was the writer's way of decribing the conflicts that occured between nomadic peoples' & sedentary farmers. What do you think of this?
[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 01-08-2004]
[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 01-08-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Abshalom, posted 01-07-2004 5:05 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 80 (77180)
01-08-2004 4:55 PM


Motive Behind the Myths
Motive Behind the Myths
The archeological discoveries in Ninevah and Babylon radically changed the scholarly understanding about the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures, known as the Law of Moses. All of the earlier historical and mythological material of the Hebrew scriptures had to be reinterpreted. The Books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, which had been attributed to Moses during the years wandering in the desert, were actually brought from Babylon to Jerusalem much later. They were already law books of a thoroughly orthodox priestly tradition, which were ceremoniously established as a Book of Law binding for all Hebrews by the Persian emperor Artaxerxes.
No knowledge of the Books of Moses was recorded before 621 bce, which is 600 years after Moses died-if he ever lived. Joseph Campbell explains that the legend of Moses-at least his birth-is modeled on the earlier birth story of the Assyrian Sargon of Agade in 2350 bce, who was also found in the bulrushes as an infant. The adaptation was composed in the 8th century bce and follows the general mythic formula for the birth of the hero. That is, a noble or divine birth, then the infant is exposed or exiled, then found and adopted by a lowly family, and ultimately returned to his true estate with those responsible being laid low. Such legends held great appeal for biographers of ambitious kings and prophets. As with most mythic adaptations, some elements are reversed to make a point. Here, the Hebrew Moses-though adopted-is born lowly and adopted nobly.
Despite drawing on the same mythic fund, all religions have a distinct theology that unifies the myths recorded in their sacred scriptures. The theology of the Hebrews, which unified the first five books of their scriptures, was that the twelve tribes of Israel descended from Abraham were given a divine blessing to be realized in their common history. The Hebrew narrative-of the pastoral patriarchs, an Egyptian interlude, then conquest and settlement in Canaan-served a mythic function. We know this narrative is myth and not history because the inconsistencies are easily detected against historical and archeological records.
The Hebrew conquest of Canaan had commenced long before the earliest plausible date for the Exodus from Egypt.
The cities of Pithom and Raamses, which the enslaved Jews supposedly built, were not constructed until one century later in the period of Ramses II.
The Bedouin tribes of Hebrews invading Canaan were not of one family but of many and entered Canaan in stages and from various directions.
Viewed as an origin myth-instead of as history-the narrative reveals both the form and function of the religion’s message: a great cycle of descent into the underworld and a triumphal return, i.e., the ancient patriarchs entered Egypt and the Chosen Hebrews emerged.
In contrast to other such myths, the Hebrew myth is very different in one degree. The hero is not an individual-not even Moses-instead, it is the Hebrew people. Just an aside, but the festival of the Passover commemorates the exodus of the people. This feast occurs on the same date as the annual sacrifice and resurrection of the Greek god Adonis, who was the consort as well as the son by virgin birth of the mother goddess Demeter. Christianity appropriated this feast date for Easter, which celebrates the death and resurrection of Jesus who was the son by virgin birth of the religion’s only remnant of the primordial mother goddess, Mary. In both the Greek pagan cult and the Christian theistic cult, the resurrection is of a god; whereas in the Hebrew cult, the redemption is of a people.
The Hebrew people’s mythic history serves a function that in other cults belongs to an incarnate god. This fundamental difference throughout history has remained Judaism’s second point of distinction among religions of the world-the first being its transcendent monotheism. As Joseph Campbell explains:
One millennium later, the patriarchal desert nomads arrived and all judgments were reversed in heaven as on earth.
Thus lies the power of myth.
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery...
trimmed down url to fix page width - The Queen
[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-08-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-08-2004 8:29 PM Stormdancer has not replied
 Message 26 by Brian, posted 01-12-2004 6:34 AM Stormdancer has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6260 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 13 of 80 (77233)
01-08-2004 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Stormdancer
01-08-2004 4:55 PM


Re: Motive Behind the Myths
The Bedouin tribes of Hebrews invading Canaan were not of one family but of many and entered Canaan in stages and from various directions.
Pedantic rubbish. Cite the evidence for "Bedouin tribes of Hebrews invading Canaan".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Stormdancer, posted 01-08-2004 4:55 PM Stormdancer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Abshalom, posted 01-09-2004 11:27 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 80 (77300)
01-09-2004 8:31 AM


Find it yourself.

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by AdminNosy, posted 01-09-2004 11:47 AM Stormdancer has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 80 (77327)
01-09-2004 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ConsequentAtheist
01-08-2004 8:29 PM


Snippy Belittlement Is Easy
Mr. Consequent:
I truly admire your well-founded cynicism, and am sure it is based in your consequent knowledge of everything pertinent to this forum; or atleast everything relative to Judeo/Christian bibliography, history, and theology. There are some of us like Stormdancer and myself who are only here to enjoy an exchange of ideas and information rather that dispersing snitty little vitriols. Maybe sometimes, due to a lack of the scholarly wordsmithmanship that you obviously possess, our posts come up a little short of your lofty standards. And I realize that I can never achieve the depth of understanding, expanse of knowledge, and keen self-esteem that someone like you obviously has achieved.
So, to avoid causing you any further frustration by our total and obvious "blatant ignorance" and "pedantic rubbish" may I suggest that the unenlighted smelly masses of ignoramuses such as I simply submit the links from which we obtain our pedantic, ignorant rubbish for your enlightened critiques.
May I humbly ask your opinion and comments regarding the following link (a subject relevant to this thread): http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.html
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-09-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-08-2004 8:29 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Stormdancer, posted 01-09-2004 2:17 PM Abshalom has not replied
 Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-11-2004 6:42 PM Abshalom has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024