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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 166 of 424 (767339)
08-28-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
08-28-2015 12:31 PM


Faith writes:
Are you actually saying that the criminal justice system should turn the other cheek to a criminal?
I'm pointing out what Jesus said. At the very least, you should be advocating against an eye for an eye, not for it.
And you keep ignoring the fact that an eye for an eye is NOT about vengeance or even "justice". It's about compensation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 12:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 1:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 424 (767343)
08-28-2015 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ringo
08-28-2015 12:41 PM


I'm fine with it being a principle and most often a basis for compensation. I merely point out that it's worded in a way that expresses perfect justice. I'm not against it, it was part of the Old Testament law which the New Testament calls holy. Jesus came for a completely different purpose than to tell states how to run their criminal justice system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 08-28-2015 12:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 08-29-2015 11:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 168 of 424 (767348)
08-28-2015 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
08-28-2015 12:23 PM


Faith
What is better, slavery to Satan or slavery to God?
Remember that God is shown as doing a lot of killing in scriptures, including innocent children and babies, while Satan kills almost none.
-----------------
Faith writes:
that an eye for an eye should be the principle that guides the justice system makes sense to me because it is such a perfect statement of justice....
If that is a perfect statement of justice, and it means that the penalty of punishment should fit the offence, how is it that God ignores it and give the same punishment to a Hitler as he would to an unrepentant liar who is not responsible for any deaths the way Hitler is?
It seems that your perfect God is ignoring what you say is a perfect statement of justice.
Please explain why he ignores perfect justice.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 12:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 2:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 169 of 424 (767350)
08-28-2015 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Greatest I am
08-28-2015 2:08 PM


The killing is done because of sin, death is the wages of sin, and sadly, we are all born into sin, nobody is innocent, not even babies. Satan brought sin into the world so he's ultimately responsible for all the killing. As the New Testament says, "he was a murderer from the beginning." To be God's slave is "pleasure forevermore," but to be the slave of sin and the devil is nothing but death and misery.
Added: you have no idea what punishment is coming to Hitler. Fear not, he'll get his due.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Greatest I am, posted 08-28-2015 2:08 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Greatest I am, posted 08-28-2015 2:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 170 of 424 (767354)
08-28-2015 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
08-28-2015 2:14 PM


Faith
As usual, you do not deal with what I gave.
You say that Satan brought sin into the world.
That is not what your bible says but that aside.
Who brought Satan and thus sin to the world?
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 2:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 6:39 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 08-29-2015 1:57 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 171 of 424 (767389)
08-28-2015 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
08-27-2015 2:03 PM


The question is whether this right of sincerely advocating that same-sex marriage should not be condoned, and seeking to teach these principles, etc., extends to Christian business owners who refuse to provide a service for a gay marriage, or to a public statement of the same beliefs as opposed to merely confining it to their private lives.
In the majority of states, homosexuals are not a protected class so you are free to discriminate against them. This is being dealt with at the state level.
Also, a business is not a religion. If your religious beliefs prevent you from running a legal business, then you need to find a new business. Freedom of religion does not extend to commerce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 2:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 172 of 424 (767390)
08-28-2015 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
08-27-2015 3:39 PM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
So far it seems to be the clerks whose job is to issue marriage licenses where the limitations on Christian freedom are being felt.
That statement by the Supreme Court is clearly meaningless. There is no meaningful right or freedom upheld in allowing acvocacy against gay marriage in private, and the First Amendment never limited religious rights to private occasions. Where the rubber meets the road is where a Christian is asked to do something that violates Christian faith, such as being asked to issue a license for a gay marriage. The context will of course expand as time goes on.
If doing your job causes you to violate your religious beliefs, then you should find a new job. I don't see what is wrong with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 6:42 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 424 (767391)
08-28-2015 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Greatest I am
08-28-2015 2:22 PM


Satan was originally created a beautiful angel. He decided to challenge God and became evil. He plotted to destroy the human race. It's all on him. I dealt with what you said, you just don't like my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Greatest I am, posted 08-28-2015 2:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Greatest I am, posted 08-28-2015 8:20 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 331 by saab93f, posted 09-03-2015 3:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 174 of 424 (767392)
08-28-2015 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:46 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Laws designed to drive Christians out of their jobs and businesses are a new thing.
They said the same thing of segregation.
If you can prevent yourself from discriminating against hindus, why can't you do the same for homosexuals? It would seem that hindus are sinning way more than the homosexuals since they are breaking one of the Ten Commandments . . . the first one if I may say so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 08-29-2015 5:13 AM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 424 (767393)
08-28-2015 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Taq
08-28-2015 6:36 PM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Yes, that's how the logic goes. Brand new law never before in existence, barely two months old at this point, just happens to challenge the Bible. Just HAPPENS to challenge the Bible. Right. Disenfranchising all Bible believing Christians. Fine with you of course. Fine with the powers that be. It does remind me somewhat of how Hitler dealt with the Jews, taking away their rights by stages, starting with their guns I think, through law. They were in the wrong according to the law so they had to give up all their freedoms. Perfectly understandable, all according to law, right?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Taq, posted 08-28-2015 6:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2015 7:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 280 by Taq, posted 08-31-2015 4:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 176 of 424 (767394)
08-28-2015 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
08-28-2015 6:42 PM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
Yes, that's how the logic goes. Brand new law never before in existence, barely two months old at this point, just happens to challenge the Bible. Just HAPPENS to challenge the Bible. Right. Disenfranchising all Bible believing Christians.
True--in this case, Christians are disenfranchised of a long-held power.
That change was long overdue, as were beer sales on Sundays and legal birth control.
You suggest that Christians cannot fully realize their religious practice without imposing morals and practices on others through the power of the state. I believe that is true; I suppose it stings like any other loss.
In your grief, you should reconsider those Bible passages where Jesus recommends living out your faith through the use of government coercion against others. Perhaps you misread them.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 6:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 8:05 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 177 of 424 (767395)
08-28-2015 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Omnivorous
08-28-2015 7:24 PM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Well, we've seen something like this coming for some time. Nevertheless it's a shock that it's come in my lifetime. You expect it but it's hard to believe. I know it's going to get worse too, that's what I had the bet with Dr. A about. Probably in my lifetime though again it will be hard to believe. Last nails in the coffin of Western Civilization, most probably last nails in the coffin of Planet Earth. Some people say how exciting it is to be alive as prophecy unfolds before our eyes. I used to think that would be the case. I don't any more. It's nothing but grief, sadness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2015 7:24 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2015 11:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 178 of 424 (767396)
08-28-2015 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
08-28-2015 6:39 PM


Faith
You did not deal with my second last nor my last.
You said Satan brought sin to earth.
Who brought Satan and thus sin to earth.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 6:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 179 of 424 (767397)
08-28-2015 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:22 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
quote:
This is exactly what the SCOIUS ruling is going to do, drive Christians out of their jobs, their businesses, etc. etc. etc. This is what we've been saying is going to happen and it is starting to happen, starting with Christian clerks whose faith is contradicted by the ruling. It's going to get worse. Christians who truly believe the Bible is God's word will not act in any way that validates gay marriage. Christians put God above the SCOTUS.
The SCOTUS ruling and the Christian casualties as a result of it are the beginning of the attack on Christianity which is only going to get worse and worse in this country. Which I think is what that wager was about with Dr. Adequate. We can wait for more examples but it's already begun.
But how is this fundamentally any different than other issues that we may disagree with as Christians? What about an OBGYN nurse when the doctor she works for recommends abortion? What about bureaucrats who are asked to issue divorce papers for frivolous reasons? What about hotel staff who are expected to rent rooms to unmarried couples?
I don't see that gay marriage is fundamentally any different than these other issues. The change that it made is quantitative, not qualitative.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 1:45 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 180 of 424 (767398)
08-28-2015 9:19 PM


A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.
Robert A. Heinlein, Friday

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

  
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