Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 79 (8863 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-20-2018 8:09 PM
202 online now:
DrJones*, nwr, xongsmith (3 members, 199 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: rldawnca
Post Volume:
Total: 838,716 Year: 13,539/29,783 Month: 985/1,576 Week: 197/303 Day: 21/36 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3456
...
193NextFF
Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 16 of 2887 (767930)
09-03-2015 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by marc9000
09-03-2015 4:30 PM


Re: Moderator On Duty
Oh look, marc is whining about imaginary faults of the moderators instead of addressing the topic. I remember the last time he did this there were strange signs and portents, like the sun rising in the east.

Marc, are you going to address the topic?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by marc9000, posted 09-03-2015 4:30 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12557
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 17 of 2887 (767933)
09-03-2015 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by marc9000
09-03-2015 4:30 PM


Re: Moderator On Duty
Hi Marc,

If you check the Moderator Guidelines you'll see that it advises moderators to issue warnings first, and to only take action if the behavior continues. I have so far only provided notice that I will be moderating the thread, and I stated that my main focus will be rule 4. Given Faith's behavior in other threads that was often tolerated without action or even comment, I'll be extending considerable leniency to everyone on rule 10, only getting involved when it gets in the way of discussion.

If you have further concerns about discussion, please take them to Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0. You could contribute best to this thread by describing the evidence that supports your position, which I assume is at least somewhat along the same lines as Faith's.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by marc9000, posted 09-03-2015 4:30 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 2887 (767934)
09-03-2015 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
09-03-2015 1:02 AM


Comments?

Just clean it up a bit. You have some excessive and unnecessary overlaps.

I'd keep the images in the same spots but fine tune the placement to minimize overlap. And for sure don't cover up parts of the actual fossil portion of the image below you, like Archy and Habilis are doing.

Crop more of the background out of Ergaster and move his neighbors inward. That blue and yellow part sticks out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-03-2015 1:02 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29538
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 19 of 2887 (767947)
09-03-2015 7:59 PM


Note: Not one single post here has offered evidence or reasoned argumentation for anything. Mine has actually done more in that direction than any other.

I'd like to see someone actually PROVE that the order of the fossils supports evolution. Can you prove increasing complexity perhaps? Anything at all.


Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2015 8:50 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-03-2015 9:04 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 22 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-03-2015 9:40 PM Faith has responded
 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 09-04-2015 1:39 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 861 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 20 of 2887 (767954)
09-03-2015 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
09-03-2015 7:59 PM


You posted assertions.

Several posters contradicted your assertions, referred to the actual state of fossil distributions and asked questions.

You respond now by ignoring their statements and questions and mischaracterizing those exchanges.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 7:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 21 of 2887 (767955)
09-03-2015 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
09-03-2015 7:59 PM


Note: Not one single post here has offered evidence or reasoned argumentation for anything.

Fossils, I take it, don't count as evidence, because Jesus.

I'd like to see someone actually PROVE that the order of the fossils supports evolution.

Well, you know how the more basal forms are dated earlier than the more derived forms ... ?

There you go. Any questions?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 7:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 10:49 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1699
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(6)
Message 22 of 2887 (767958)
09-03-2015 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
09-03-2015 7:59 PM


Faith writes:

Not one single post here has offered evidence or reasoned argumentation for anything. Mine has actually done more in that direction than any other.

I don't think you have Faith. This is a science forum and you refer to the biblical flood. There is no evidence in the bible, just a mythical story about events that we know did not happen.

Faith the evidence gathered from all over the earth for the last 200 years by tens of thousands of geologists and geology students, plus, PLUS, the paleontologists, the oceanographers, the geographers, the volcanologists, the chemists, the physicists and astrophysicists, PLUS, all of the biological fields, PLUS, a bunch more groups of specialists that have all contributed to the knowledge of the history of the earth, all that evidence, EVERY SINGLE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE, supports an old earth and a branching pattern of life that is inter-related and evolving.

Nothing refutes it.

Faith writes:

I'd like to see someone actually PROVE that the order of the fossils supports evolution.

Well, you have already made it clear that no amount of proof would convince you.

Two books that I read many years ago are wonderful for their detailed descriptions of fossils and following the evolution of individual traits through successive species.

Invertebrate Fossils, by Raymond C. Moore, Cecil G. Lalicker, and Alfred G. Fischer, 768p, 1952, McGraw-Hill.

Evolution of the Vertebrates, by Edwin H. Colbert, 479p, 1955, John Wiley & Sons.

These are old books and we have added libraries of data about the earth and life since they were written.

What I am saying to you is, all these scientists, in all these sciences, in all these years, have been increasing and refining and scrutinizing, analyzing, finding mistakes, correcting mistakes in the data.

The inescapable conclusion is the earth is very, very old and so is life and it has been evolving ever since it appeared. The modern framework of science has no anomalies in our history of the earth and life.

I am not saying that there is nothing that we don't know, I am saying that everything we DO know is consistent and agrees across all those fields. Not one single piece of evidence, out of all the evidence I have been talking about, make scientists go, "wait just a minute, this evidence obviously supports the biblical flood and Genisis."

There is no body of scientific work that refutes that the fossils completely support the Theory of Evolution.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : grammer


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 7:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:09 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:37 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29538
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 23 of 2887 (767962)
09-03-2015 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tanypteryx
09-03-2015 9:40 PM


There is no body of scientific work that refutes that the fossils completely support the Theory of Evolution.

Of course not. Because once the paradigm was established and accepted there was nothing to do but build upon it and within it. It has become an entrenched assumption or presupposition. There is enough seeming evidence, or at least plausibility, to keep the system going, as long as tge few best bits of evidence are emphasized over and over and the difficult areas are sidestepped, which is very easy to do with a theory that is unprovable in the direct ways the hard sciences are provable.

Unprovable because the whole thing is an edifice of interpretation upon interpretation, none of it can be replicated, it can only be interpreted. You can't replicate the burial of dinosaurs, all you can do is interpret what you think must have happened, and in that enterprise you are limited by what has already been accepted, so you fit your bit of understanding into the already-constructed edifice. You add your interpretive plausible bit to the whole edifice and just keep building, although it has no foundation in actual fact, it's all mental conjurings. The whole thing is a gravity-defying reality-defying multiplication of interpretations floating some distance above planet earth. You have the illusion of science, the illusion of evidence, you mentally manipulate mental figments as if they were realities. It's all very convincing if you are entrenched in the system yourself.

You have no motive to see through it but it's pretty transparent to one who does.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-03-2015 9:40 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-03-2015 10:37 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-03-2015 11:48 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-04-2015 12:13 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-04-2015 12:05 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 42 by edge, posted 09-04-2015 12:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1699
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 24 of 2887 (767966)
09-03-2015 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-03-2015 10:09 PM


Faith writes:

as long as tge few best bits of evidence are emphasized over and over and the difficult areas are sidestepped,

You are right about something......we really are pleased by the best bits of evidence! And we will never get tired of pointing them out.

You are completely wrong that there are only a few. The total number of what we call best bits is huge. What incredible good luck that we have found so many.

the difficult areas are sidestepped,

What are these "difficult areas"?

And how are they being side-stepped?

There have been literally hundreds of "difficult areas" pointed out with your story of how it all happened. You have side-stepped every single one of them, multiple times.

Faith writes:

You have no motive to see through it but it's pretty transparent to one who does.

If you did a good job of compiling and writing up the evidence you would be guaranteed a Nobel Prize. That is a pretty good motive. Could even be a sweep, physics, chemistry and biology. (I guess we would have to shoehorn biology into Physiology or Medicine).


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3078
Joined: 08-11-2004


(3)
Message 25 of 2887 (767972)
09-03-2015 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
09-03-2015 11:59 AM


Tell me faith,

IF the great flood was responsible for all those fossils, how did a layer of desert, with fossil footprints in sandstone get between two layers of fossils that are from a shallow sea. Please , how can that happen ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 11:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 26 of 2887 (767973)
09-03-2015 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-03-2015 10:09 PM


This is a perfect description of YEC:

Because once the paradigm was established and accepted there was nothing to do but build upon it and within it. It has become an entrenched assumption or presupposition. There is enough seeming evidence, or at least plausibility, to keep the system going, as long as tge few best bits of evidence are emphasized over and over and the difficult areas are sidestepped, which is very easy to do with a theory that is unprovable in the direct ways the hard sciences are provable.

Unprovable because the whole thing is an edifice of interpretation upon interpretation, none of it can be replicated, it can only be interpreted. You can't replicate the burial of dinosaurs, all you can do is interpret what you think must have happened, and in that enterprise you are limited by what has already been accepted, so you fit your bit of understanding into the already-constructed edifice. You add your interpretive plausible bit to the whole edifice and just keep building, although it has no foundation in actual fact, it's all mental conjurings. The whole thing is a gravity-defying reality-defying multiplication of interpretations floating some distance above planet earth. You have the illusion of science, the illusion of evidence, you mentally manipulate mental figments as if they were realities. It's all very convincing if you are entrenched in the system yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 27 of 2887 (767974)
09-04-2015 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-03-2015 10:09 PM


Of course not. Because once the paradigm was established and accepted there was nothing to do but build upon it and within it. It has become an entrenched assumption or presupposition. There is enough seeming evidence, or at least plausibility, to keep the system going, as long as tge few best bits of evidence are emphasized over and over and the difficult areas are sidestepped, which is very easy to do with a theory that is unprovable in the direct ways the hard sciences are provable.

Unprovable because the whole thing is an edifice of interpretation upon interpretation, none of it can be replicated, it can only be interpreted. You can't replicate the burial of dinosaurs, all you can do is interpret what you think must have happened, and in that enterprise you are limited by what has already been accepted, so you fit your bit of understanding into the already-constructed edifice. You add your interpretive plausible bit to the whole edifice and just keep building, although it has no foundation in actual fact, it's all mental conjurings. The whole thing is a gravity-defying reality-defying multiplication of interpretations floating some distance above planet earth. You have the illusion of science, the illusion of evidence, you mentally manipulate mental figments as if they were realities. It's all very convincing if you are entrenched in the system yourself.

You have no motive to see through it but it's pretty transparent to one who does.

You're trying to describe science as though it's a bad thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 28 of 2887 (767975)
09-04-2015 12:28 AM


Things Progressively Less Like Turtles All The Way Down
And in breaking news, we have a new turtle ancestor, Pappochelys.
  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14346
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 29 of 2887 (767976)
09-04-2015 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
09-03-2015 7:59 PM


quote:

Note: Not one single post here has offered evidence or reasoned argumentation for anything. Mine has actually done more in that direction than any other.

Really? Can you support your claim that there is a "sorting" of geological layers and that this alleged "sorting" is used to date rocks.

I think that every informed person knows that the primary method of dating is the geometrical relationships between strata, and the really rather basic point of the Principle of Superposition. Radiometric dating is a very welcome addition, and it must be printed out that it provides strong support for mainstream geology and very strong evidence against the idea that large amounts of the geological record were deposited in a single year.

quote:

I'd like to see someone actually PROVE that the order of the fossils supports evolution. Can you prove increasing complexity perhaps? Anything at all.

More correctly the maximum complexity increases - although that trend is mainly due to life starting simply rather than any force encouraging the development of complexity. Parasites, for instance, tend to become simpler.

It's sort of amazing that someone who' spent so many years arguing about this should be so unaware of the evidence. The earliest known fossils are stromatolites - structures created by single-called organisms. Multi-called life appears later, we have the strange Ediacarian fauna. Early chordates appear in the Cambrian, followed by early vertebrates, primitive fish. Have a look at Myllokunmingia and tell me that's as complex as a modern mammal. At the other end of the scale, with human evolution we have a progression from Australopithecines through early Homo species, up to Habilis to Erectus to modern Homo Sapiens.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 7:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 30 of 2887 (767979)
09-04-2015 2:01 AM


And Now Some Ankylosaurs
Oh look, more intermediate forms ... it's been a good week for them.

These two dinosaurs, named Liaoningosaurus paradoxus and Zhongyuansaurus luoyangensis, both had interlocking tail vertebrae that formed early versions of the handle but lacked tail knobs. Whats more, Arbour and Currie note, Liaoningosaurus lived about 122 million years ago and Zhongyuansaurus was shuffling around about 92 million years ago, while the first ankylosaurs with fully-formed tail clubs evolved around 75 million years ago. The handle came first.

So, more evidence for evolution, or just God lying to us?


Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 09-04-2015 2:23 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Prev1
2
3456
...
193NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018