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Author | Topic: Catholics are making it up. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MrHambre Member (Idle past 1419 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined:
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Tangle writes:
Humans have culturally constructed many things, like currency systems, nations, forms of art and literature, morality, and even scientific inquiry. Religion is just as "made up" as any of these.
I'm pointing out that the process of jetisoning beliefs exposes them to the criticism that they have made ALL of it up. quote: But it is going away - it's in decline across the developed world. Magical thinking is so adorable.
they are actually saying that they were wrong about core truths.
Again, I don't think limbo and not-forgiving-abortion-moms qualify as core doctrines of Catholicism or any other religion. It's not like the Pope is saying that God doesn't exist or that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, which are certainly core doctrines. And this process has been going on for centuries. The doctrine of original sin got shitcanned decades ago. If you're under the impression that all of a sudden, the Catholic Church is cutting loose important parts of its catechism, and that this is a sign that the entire edifice of Catholicism is collapsing, I'd say you haven't been paying attention.
It's my position that the entirety of their - and, as it happens, all - belief systems is a total fabrication.
Next you'll be telling us that money is just pieces of paper. Is nothing real anymore?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Humans have culturally constructed many things, like currency systems, nations, forms of art and literature, morality, and even scientific inquiry. Religion is just as "made up" as any of these. There is only one true religion, one true revelation of God and that is the Bible. Nothing "made up" about it. If I thought any of it was I wouldn't be a believer.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
MrH writes: Humans have culturally constructed many things, like currency systems, nations, forms of art and literature, morality, and even scientific inquiry. Religion is just as "made up" as any of these. I agree. Catholics (and other believers) would not.
As far as I know, surveys show that more people are identifying as having no religious beliefs. To you, this means that religion is going away? if you wish to split hairs about 'going away' and 'in decline' and other synonyms, count me out.
Again, I don't think limbo and not-forgiving-abortion-moms qualify as core doctrines of Catholicism or any other religion. Then you would be incorrect.
It's not like the Pope is saying that God doesn't exist or that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, which are certainly core doctrines. If by that you mean they're common to all versions of Christianity then you're right. But we're not talking about that; the things they are giving up are some of the things that made them Catholic and not any other Christian franchise. What's next? virgin birth? Transubstantiation?
And this process has been going on for centuries. Yes it has. That's my point. Core beliefs are being abandonned because they don't fit anymore. The concept of limbo was dumped because the Catholic missionaries in Africa were losing out to the evangelicals who told a better story to parents in countries with high infant death rates.
The doctrine of original sin got shitcanned decades ago. If you're under the impression that all of a sudden, the Catholic Church is cutting loose important parts of its catechism, and that this is a sign that the entire edifice of Catholicism is collapsing, I'd say you haven't been paying attention. And where exactly are you getting this impression from? I have said that Catholics have been dumping daft dogma for years - since at least the enlightenment - it's a pragmatic response to changes in their market. I'm just reporting this weeks ditched dogma that's in the news and remarking on the ongoing disassembly of their belief system. Neither have I said that the 'entire edifice of Catholicism is collapsing' - you really must stop this straw man building and 'pay attention' to what I'm actually saying. It's worth pointing out though that here in the UK and particularly Ireland, the recruitment of priests into the faith has virtually ground to a halt. A product of declining belief generally but also the disgust of the child abuse scandels and subsequent cover ups.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yet the fact remains that there is no such thing as "The Bible" and that all of the various bibles contain false statements, fiction and contradictions.
You can deny that but the actual words written prove that you would be wrong.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3988 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
MrHambre writes: The doctrine of original sin got shitcanned decades ago. I'm following your exchange with Tangle with considerable interest. I try to stay out of interesting one-on-one exchanges (with only partial success, as you can see), but I'm curious about your statement above. I looked at summaries of contemporary Catholic doctrine and catechism, and while it certainly differs from the Protestant take on original sin, the notion of a fallen human state which gives supernatural evil greater power over humans still seems clear enough. But I don't generally follow developments in religious doctrine. Was there some explicit doctrinal reinterpretation decades ago?"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1419 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined:
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Omnivorous writes:
I'm not an expert on doctrine, obviously. It used to be taught that babies who die unbaptized can't be saved, but that hasn't been official doctrine for decades. I don't generally follow developments in religious doctrine. Was there some explicit doctrinal reinterpretation decades ago? You're right, "original sin" in a general sense is still a Catholic belief.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Original Sin is a PROTESTANT belief, though no doubt quite different from the Catholic version. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden tree. That disobedience was the original sin, and its consequence was the fallen nature of humanity which was inherited from them by all of us. God said they would die. That's a principle repeated in scripture, as "the wages of sin is death." It started with the death of the spirit which had been in constant communion with God until their sin, and it progressed and still progresses throughout the human race in every kind of disease and deformity to ultimate death of the body. We are saved from this sin and its consequences by belief in the death of Christ in our place.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Except Faith, that is NOT what the Bible says. There is no mention of any death of the spirit or fallen nature in the Genesis 2&3 story and Adam & Eve (or Steve since Eve is just a clone of Adam) do not cease to be in communion with the God character plus death certainly existed before the Garden was even created since it was necessary to create a Tree of Life.
Have you ever actually read the Bible Faith?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Only literal-minded dunderheadedness requires the Bible to state doctrine in so many words. A great deal of doctrine is inferred, but that takes a lot of thought, which is beyond some.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8552 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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But you can't just market salvation for sinners by waiting for them to commit sins. Limits your revenue base. Having everyone on the planet defined as a sinner just by virtue of having been born maximizes your revenue opportunities to their fullest extent possible.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is no revenue in salvation. Except of course bogus Catholic "salvation" which isn't salvation anyway.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Original Sin is a PROTESTANT belief, though no doubt quite different from the Catholic version. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden tree. That disobedience was the original sin, and its consequence was the fallen nature of humanity which was inherited from them by all of us. The Original Sin - About Catholics
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8552 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
And how do you spell tithe?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Excuse me?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Original Sin is a PROTESTANT belief True, but the Catholics had it 1500 years or so before them.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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