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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 507 (768416)
09-11-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Taq
09-11-2015 12:53 PM


Re: TRVTH?
There's no dilemma. The Bible is always true even if human beings are fallible.
Besides, show me ONE religion that's ever "died a quick death" even when out of touch with the mountains of often bogus evidence science piles on us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Taq, posted 09-11-2015 12:53 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Taq, posted 09-11-2015 2:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 122 of 507 (768419)
09-11-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by NoNukes
09-11-2015 11:58 AM


NoNukes writes:
The point of comparison is a single one. Why it is that theology cannot legitimately change.
As I've said, it's because the beliefs are supposed to be the word of god, the revealed truth. Absolute. In the case of Catholicism:
Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "When, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."[1][2]
You can shrug and say again who cares what Catholics believe, and presumably say the same thing about Hindus, Muslims, Janes, Mormons, Sheiks and all the other inventions of religions that have gone down the ages, that aren't your arbitrary choice, but it speaks to the veracity of beliefs that when they change it's not through new revealed truth or new evidence but only because secular society has made them look silly and the shoe no longer fits. In order to continue to exist at all they have to change - even so they inevitably decline because they are not built on anything substantive and nothing new has been found - or can be found - to support them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 09-11-2015 11:58 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Jon, posted 09-11-2015 1:41 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 09-11-2015 5:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 507 (768422)
09-11-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Tangle
09-11-2015 1:19 PM


Awfully hateful for bald little six-year-old, eh?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 09-11-2015 1:19 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 124 of 507 (768424)
09-11-2015 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
09-11-2015 1:05 PM


Re: TRVTH?
There's no dilemma. The Bible is always true even if human beings are fallible.
So says a fallible human about a book written by fallible humans, translated by fallible humans, and interpreted by fallible humans.
Besides, show me ONE religion that's ever "died a quick death" even when out of touch with the mountains of often bogus evidence science piles on us.
Heaven's Gate, Davidian, the recent apocalyptic cults that got their predictions all wrong, just to name a few.
Also, you have never shown that any of evidence is bogus. If I ever did want to destroy religion, all I would need to do is trot people like yourself in front of a crowd. I would show them the damage religion does to one's ability to reason and use logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-11-2015 1:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 125 of 507 (768439)
09-11-2015 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Tangle
09-11-2015 1:19 PM


As I've said, it's because the beliefs are supposed to be the word of god
Except that beliefs are instead what we understand the word of God to be, and sometimes those beliefs are incorrect or only approximations based on our human limits. Further, people change, their circumstances change, and both their understanding and the applicability of what they are reading changes. I can imagine in a situation where possessions are unnecessary and commandments not to steal have no meaning except as a way of understanding the people of the past.
Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error
The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. What he says about church doctrine is the last word on the subject just as the US Supreme Court's decisions are the final word on constitutionality.
And of course different Popes say different things based on, I assume, what they themselves believe. There are all kinds of reasons why one Pope might see things differently than another.
The Supreme Court says that gays can marry, and they reach that conclusion using the same constitution under which gay marriage rights were not supported. Does that make the constitution a sham given that it has not been amended in way relevant to the issue of gay marriage since 1865? Not as I see it.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Tangle, posted 09-11-2015 1:19 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 2:27 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 507 (768461)
09-12-2015 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by kbertsche
09-11-2015 2:01 AM


Re: TRVTH?
Faith writes:
Tangle is right. But EvC is full of "liberal" religionists who are always willing to change God's revelation to suit their version of science or political correctness or whatever. Or even not bother to change it, just ignore it.
Faith, consider the following:
1) Luther made strong statements in support of geocentrism. Calvin arguably also supported geocentrism. But nearly all Christians today deny geocentrism.
2) John Whitcomb was comfortable with a creation as much as 10,000-15,000 years old. But nearly all YECs today insist that it can't be much more than 6,000 years old.
3) Many of the pro-YEC arguments that I heard as a youngster are now on ICR's and AIG's lists of "arguments that should not be used".
4) B.B. Warfield supported a version of theistic evolution. But most reformed believers today who are his theological descendants completely deny theistic evolution.
5) Serious Christians (even in your own Reformed branch of Christendom) have different views on a huge variety of topics: eschatology, types of music allowed in worship, role of women in church leadership, etc.
The fundamental, primary, essential doctrines of the Christian faith don't change. But secondary, non-essential doctrines DO change. This is not necessarily a bad thing.
I'm not sure I answered this clearly enough so I'm trying again. The idea was supposed to be that even excellent theologians can make mistakes. It would be a mistake to use their mistake to justify an argument that is essentially unbiblical, which I believe geocentrism is, and theistic evolution, so it's right that most believers today reject those ideas. Note: there was no change here, np progress, just mistakes that have been rejected by the majority.
In fact nothing you said suggests that any progress from a biblical position has ever been made, since most have reverted to the most conservative biblical viewpoint.
Continuing, I don't see how it's possible to justify more than 6000 years of earth history from the Biblical facts.
I don't think any of those ideas can be convincingly defended from scripture but are imposed on it by one degree or another of self-deception due to worldly influences.
I think women in leadership positions in the church is another obvious violation of what the Bible says, so that liberal views of it are simply unbiblical and wrong, same as with geocentrism, age of the earth, theistic evolution etc. I don't suppose any woman with leadership ability could be completely happy with this but our job is to obey the Bible and find other outlets for our leadership gifts. This life is short enough and I don't want to be found arguing with God in the end.
Eschatology is of course a difficult subject and one the Bible leaves vague for obvious reasons, and I've found it hard to accept anybody's complete system. So although I think some systems are more convincing than others I'm not going to come down hard and fast on any one of them yet.
Types of music is another vexed subject, and one I think involves spiritual discernment but I'm not ready to make it a hill to die on.
However, again, in all these subjects you haven't shown the superiority of any liberal idea over the obvious conservative position of the Bible. You obviously choose to support some of the liberal ideas yourself, but in my judgment completely without biblical warrant.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by kbertsche, posted 09-11-2015 2:01 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by kbertsche, posted 09-12-2015 11:45 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 127 of 507 (768462)
09-12-2015 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
09-11-2015 5:36 PM


NoNukes writes:
Except that beliefs are instead what we understand the word of God to be, and sometimes those beliefs are incorrect or only approximations based on our human limits.
In other words, people are simply making it up. Which is my thesis.
The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church.......And of course different Popes say different things based on, I assume, what they themselves believe. There are all kinds of reasons why one Pope might see things differently than another.
In other words, popes are making it up.
The Supreme Court says that gays can marry, and they reach that conclusion using the same constitution under which gay marriage rights were not supported. Does that make the constitution a sham given that it has not been amended in way relevant to the issue of gay marriage since 1865? Not as I see it.
This is a good example of one process by which our secular institutions are replacing the outdated religious ideas of how society should be guided towards the right moral choices. It wasn't religion that legislated against gay discrimination, it was our civil societies. In fact religion believes homosexuality to be 'abhorrent'. Societal advancement is developmental - it builds on knowledge gained through its democratic and technological and scientific progress. Religion is backward looking and and conservative and can only hinder this progress.
Only yesterday a bill in our parliament on assisted dying was defeated, partly, if not entirely, because of made up religious beliefs about the 'sanctity' of life and the made up sin of suicide. 'There is nothing sacred about suffering, nothing holy about dying.' Assisted dying will eventually become part of normal healthcare but it'll require the suppression of religious objection on made up grounds to get there.
There are no new insights in religious knowledge, there can't be, their only way forward is to follow secular development by dumping their dafter beliefs so that they don't alienate new generations of recruits.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 09-11-2015 5:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 2:35 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2015 10:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 507 (768463)
09-12-2015 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Tangle
09-12-2015 2:27 AM


You are most likely right about how things are going to play out politically on such an issue as assisted suicide and other areas with strong Christian influence behind them, but if you're wrong in your own beliefs all you are doing is dispatching suffering people into a Hell of eternal suffering by giving them a painless death, based only on your entrenched prejudice that this world is all there is and there is no afterlife. Sad to think you most likely won't know the truth until your own death, and you'll just go on in your delusion helping to dismantle the glorious Christian heritage of your nation. .
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 2:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 2:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 129 of 507 (768465)
09-12-2015 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
09-12-2015 2:35 AM


Faith writes:
all you are doing is dispatching suffering people into a Hell of eternal suffering by giving them a painless death.
...another great example of making stuff up.
Sad to think you most likely won't know this until your own death, and you'll just go on in your delusion helping to dismantle the glorious Christian heritage of your nation.
Happily, religions can't control the masses anymore by threatening them will this sort of made up nonsense.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 2:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 3:00 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 507 (768466)
09-12-2015 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Tangle
09-12-2015 2:54 AM


Unlike the RCC examples, which can clearly be shown to have been made up with respect to the actual teachings of Christianity in the Bible, you haven't a leg to stand on when you say Hell is made up. Every religion with few exceptions has had its own version of a Hell, the Buddhists having many Hells designed to deal with many different kinds of sins. I remember being shocked when I first discovered that Hell wasn't a Christian invention. Sure suggests to me that so much human testimony to an afterlife of suffering for our sins deserves to be taken seriously. But alas, modern man has the arrogance to think he knows everything and the ancients knew nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 2:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 3:09 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 131 of 507 (768467)
09-12-2015 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
09-12-2015 3:00 AM


Faith writes:
Sure suggests to me that so much human testimony to an afterlife of suffering for our sins deserves to be taken seriously.
Human testimony? On what evidence? You mean human story telling.
People have invented these sorts of things since there have been people - it's what people do, tell stories. Elves, goblins, trolls. Unicorns, lost worlds, magic swords. Witches, druids, sea serpents. Tooth fairies and father christmas. Underworlds and over-worlds. These days the fantasies are of zombies, aliens, space travel and distopian futures.
The ideas of hells are easily explained as human methods of controlling the worst instincts of people - as is heaven. They're just social controls, carrots and sticks. You do it all the time - in fact you just did. 'Boy are you in for a surprise' is a quote from you that I'm most fond of. Conform to my belifs or go to hell. Doesn't work anymore, sorry - the emperor has been recognised as naked.
It's pretty easy to spot make-believe, there is no actual evidence for any of them.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 3:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 3:15 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 507 (768468)
09-12-2015 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
09-12-2015 3:09 AM


Funny you can't tell fiction from reality. So much for superior intelligence due to large cranial capacity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 3:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 3:21 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 133 of 507 (768469)
09-12-2015 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
09-12-2015 3:15 AM


Faith writes:
Funny you can't tell fiction from reality.
This might seem a tad obvious, but reality means that something is real. If something is real, there is evidence of it. Show me the evidence and I'll believe you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 3:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 3:26 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 134 of 507 (768470)
09-12-2015 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Tangle
09-12-2015 3:21 AM


You clearly have a false definition of "real" as material or visible. So nonmaterial or invisible realities would of course escape you altogether. Short of God's having mercy on you and giving you the experience of the manifestation of a spiritual being, I wonder what could possibly suffice as evidence of such things against a prejudice such as yours? For me it was the quality and quantity of witnesses to such things. And of course I believe I can tell the difference between a made-up fiction and a sincere testimony to invisible realities.
But if you can't you can't. Guess I can't help you there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 3:21 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 09-12-2015 3:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 135 of 507 (768471)
09-12-2015 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
09-12-2015 3:26 AM


Faith writes:
You clearly have a false definition of "real" as material or visible.
Clearly you wish to redefine a word to mean the exact opposite of its actually meaning.
Reality is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.[1]
So nonmaterial or invisible realities would of course escape you altogether.
Yes, things that have no reality escape me - and everyone else - altogether.
I wonder what could possibly suffice as evidence of such things against a prejudice such as yours?
I admit to the prejudice of requiring some form of evidence for something existing before I form my entire world outlook on it.
For me it was the quality and quantity of witnesses to such things.
And yet you haven't produced any witness evidence for this hell. I say it's another made up story, so prove me wrong (in another thread Preferably.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 3:26 AM Faith has not replied

  
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