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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 196 of 507 (768902)
09-14-2015 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by AZPaul3
09-14-2015 8:06 PM


Re: A Swing and a Myth
Comparing me to a creationist doesn't change the fact that your position is based not on "fact," but on your bigotry and ignorance, and the scaremongering of celebrity ideologues. If you've made a sincere effort to engage with contemporary religious thought, or secular philosophers who discuss the dynamic of religion in modern civilization, it doesn't show.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by AZPaul3, posted 09-14-2015 8:06 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 197 of 507 (768907)
09-14-2015 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
09-14-2015 3:38 PM


Re: western science
Faith writes:
As I've always understood it, the biblical framework, which presents a law-giving God and a basically RATIONAL understanding of nature, history and reality, contrary to popular prejudice today, was both a motivator and the catalyst to the DEVELOPMENT of the empirical and experimental approach to scientific questions. Once the perspective and the method were established others could also do it and do it well.
Yes, I think that's part of it. They expected an unchanging, faithful God to be consistent in the way He operated His creation; they expected the creation to follow laws that God had set up.
In Barbour's book, "Issues in Science and Religion" (pp. 44-50), he details a number of unique, biblically-motivated attitudes which the Puritan "virtuosi" had:
1) interest in nature for its own sake, as coming from the hand of a rational God.
2) the conviction that the details of nature can only be known by observing them. Since God was free to create nature in any way He wished, it is impossible to know its details by philosophical arguments from first principles (as the Greeks tried to do).
3) an affirmative attitude toward nature, believing that there is something good about the world which God so purposefully created.
4) the Protestant ethic which was the Reformation view that secular work was no lesser in the eyes of God than purely religious vocations.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 3:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 198 of 507 (768909)
09-14-2015 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by AZPaul3
09-14-2015 6:58 PM


Re: Accomodationism Perpetuates Evil
Where are you getting this Evilspeak?
I see no problem with Satan's appearance in Job and really can't figure out what your complaint is. Does seem that the snake venom has interestingly shown up dripping down your own lip though.
God's in charge of everything, not Satan. And He DIDN'T allow Satan to destroy Job.
Do you have any evidence of the priests "rewriting" anything? A stray manuscript with a different story in it? No, of course not. It is well known that the Jews were superstitiously careful with their scrolls, practiced an obsessively self-checking method of copying them so as to prevent errors, and the Dead Sea Scrolls are almost precisely identical to the Old Testament manuscripts in use by Christians, differences being minuscule. There are no contradictions, Jesus refers to all the books of the OT, it all hangs together. It takes an evil imagination to make up something else.
About murder and theft and lying etc, I was referring to something Dr. A said. Perhaps you disagree with him.
The sins of the fathers is one of those revelations of how reality works that it would be foolish to ignore, let alone subject to sophomoric personal opinion with venom dripping down your chin.
A people minding their own business with centuries of their own ways, which now you say your god didn’t like because it didn’t include him, are set upon by a nomadic desert tribe of religious zealots and are slaughtered. How nice. A half a world away the Chinese had rather open reasons of power and property to make war without any knowledge of your god. Why didn’t your god have any name or influence there? Because his myth wasn’t invented there.
Of course you don't want the answer to this. But maybe somebody else does. Or maybe not, but here it is: God is God, but the Fall corrupted the human spirit so that we lost touch with Him. The Bible was written to reintroduce Him to us and teach us His ways, and lead us to salvation from the horrific consequences of the Fall.
All the peoples of the world had followed Satan, the architect of the Fall, and accepted demon gods for their tribal gods. That's what the Canaanites were worshipping, and they had all the mercy of Satan in their demands for the sacrifice of children, and all the holiness of prostitution in their fertility rituals, both hetero and homosexual. It was these sins against the Law of God (written on their hearts like everybody elses') that had accumulated to the point of calling down God's judgment on them. The sin wasn't yet "full" enough when the Israelites were living in Egypt, they had to wait until the right time tp become God's agents of judgment.
As for China, what's the problem? God is God, He's in charge of everything everywhere including the wars of every people and their outcome. Nobody knew about Him because all peoples had lost the memory of Him because of their fallen nature. They were under the thrall of the usurper demon gods Satan had installed in every nation. Nobody needs to know Him for His Law to affect the entire world. Again, it's BECAUSE nobody knows Him that He gave us the Bible. Now we CAN know Him, but wonder of wonders, there are some who would rather not. Like you.
But now China has been blessed by the true God so they can be saved too:
2010: the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life estimated over 67 million Christians in China, of which 35 million "independent" Protestants, 23 million Three-Self Protestants, 9 million Catholics and 20,000 Orthodox Christians.
One of my all-time favorite Christian writers is the Chinese teacher Watchman Nee, who died in prison for his faith under Mao.
If you write another post to me may I suggest that you take measures to keep the corrosive acid venom off the keyboard. Just a friendly bit of advice.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by AZPaul3, posted 09-14-2015 6:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by AZPaul3, posted 09-14-2015 11:50 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 199 of 507 (768919)
09-14-2015 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
09-14-2015 9:53 PM


Re: Accomodationism Perpetuates Evil
There is more to the evolution of ha-satan as seen from the first temple period to Satan as seen from the second temple period than you have bothered to learn from your bible. You're big on reading some commentaries so long as they agree with your views. Try stepping out of that comfort zone a bit and find your own commentaries on how the snake could not have been your Satan since the Satan you envision in The Revelation today did not exist in the writings of the first temple period when the snake myth was first written down. Read about the influence of Zoroastrianism in the second temple writings after the Babylon captivity and how the ha-satan evolved into Satan to take the load of evil off of god's personality.
This should help you get started. It's not the article itself but the links behind that you should follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 9:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 2:17 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 200 of 507 (768929)
09-15-2015 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by AZPaul3
09-14-2015 11:50 PM


Re: Accomodationism Perpetuates Evil
You've bought some revisionist interpretation you want me to accept. I know who Satan is, there is no "evolution" of his character, there is only the usual progressive revelation which is the method of the Bible, so that we only see parts of the picture at first and then get a more complete view later on. It's YOU who are seeking to validate your own views, not me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by AZPaul3, posted 09-14-2015 11:50 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 201 of 507 (768930)
09-15-2015 2:21 AM


" ...a thousand other laws..."
Thomaston, Georgia
May 22, 1934
Pop Pius XI
Rome, Italy
Dear Sir;
Is the accusation true, that Protestants accuse you of? They say you
changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the, so-called, Christian Sunday:
Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the
change, and by what authority?
Yours very truly,
J. L. Day
The Reply:
THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XI)
Dear sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the
Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
> (1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith
> and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath.
The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies
them in the eyes of every thinking man.
(2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.
Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church,
as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach
and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of
the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to the Sunday.
We frankly say, "yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she
made many other laws, for instance, the Friday Abstinence, the unmarried
priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic
marriages, and a thousand other laws."
(3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are
the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their
teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches,
in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sunday of which there
is nothing in the Bible.
With best wishes,
Peter R. Tramer, Editor

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 2:27 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 202 of 507 (768931)
09-15-2015 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Tangle
09-15-2015 2:21 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
The SDAs are regarded as a cult by Protestants, and while there has been some confusion about what exactly the Sabbath was meant to be, the best understanding is that the Sabbath was one of the laws that Jesus fulfilled, scripture saying "He IS our Sabbath." Meaning He is our Rest, ("Abide -- or rest -- in Me" He said) which is what the word Sabbath means.
And the practical upshot of this is that we do not honor a Sabbath day at all, we have a day of worship which is the first day of the week, or Sunday, because that's the day Jesus rose from the dead. Historically it has sometimes been confused with the Sabbath but that's a mistake.
So we agree with the RCC about the Sabbath, which doesn't need their pagan authorization for it at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 2:21 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 2:33 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 203 of 507 (768932)
09-15-2015 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
09-15-2015 2:27 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
And of course, this just demonstrates the process and the human justifications for making stuff up - including those that claim to follow the letter of the bible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 2:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 2:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 204 of 507 (768933)
09-15-2015 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Tangle
09-15-2015 2:33 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Hardly. It's all quite in keeping with the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 2:33 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 2:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 205 of 507 (768934)
09-15-2015 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
09-15-2015 2:34 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Faith writes:
Hardly. It's all quite in keeping with the Bible.
Don't you find it just a little disconcerting that Christians can't even agree on something as simple and as seemingly factual as which day of the week is the Sabbath? Doesn't it make you think that if it's that easy to dissemble about such a straightforward issue that perhaps some things that are genuinely incomprehensible - such as the Trinity - might also just be made up?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 2:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 3:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 206 of 507 (768936)
09-15-2015 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
09-15-2015 2:54 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
No. The Sabbath is a peculiar commandment, requiring an action though it sits among the moral commandments that require avoiding certain sins. It's different enough that some Christians set it apart from the other commandments. The early Church seems not to have had the problem since they assigned Sunday as the day of worship, but later on Sunday got confused with the Sabbath as a literal day of rest from work, which even got imposed on American society for the sake of workers. I don't think it's easy to understand the concept of Jesus Himself being our rest.
The Trinity on the other hand is really pretty easy to grasp as a biblical concept when you see the scriptures it's based on. There are lots of them and they add up very nicely and clearly to the Trinity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 2:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 3:58 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 207 of 507 (768937)
09-15-2015 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
09-15-2015 3:55 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Right, the trinity is easy to understand while a day of the week isn't.
The mind of the believer is a truly wonderous thing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 3:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 4:11 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 208 of 507 (768938)
09-15-2015 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Tangle
09-15-2015 3:58 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Right, the trinity is easy to understand while a day of the week isn't.
The mind of the believer is a truly wonderous thing.
Well, look at it this way: It has always been understood that Jesus fulfilled the Law of God for us because we couldn't. That certainly has to mean the moral commandments, no other gods before Him, honoring father and mother, the shalt nots of lying, murdering, stealing, adultery and coveting. No problem seeing how He fulfilled all that for us, and happy I am that He did.
But if you regard the Sabbath as a day of the week, how could He have fulfilled THAT in our place? If you treat it as different from the other commandments as something we are to obey literally while we recognize our spiritual weakness in obeying the others (mere lust in the mind is sin against the adultery shalt-not, hatred in the mind for a person is sin against the murder shalt-not) it just seems odd and out of joint. You have to come to see how He is our rest, and what it means to "abide in" Him, and then and only then does it make sense that He fulfilled that commandment too.
Does that clarify?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 3:58 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 4:34 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 210 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 5:07 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 209 of 507 (768939)
09-15-2015 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
09-15-2015 4:11 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Faith writes:
Does that clarify?
Yes it certainly does. It clarifies the mental cartwheels you people have to perform in order to explain away a very simple difficulty with your current rules.
It's pretty clear that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as a pure policy matter, presumably to make it different from Jewish practice.
The protestant believers came along after and didn't bother changing it back to the biblically correct Saturday. Now they have to dissemble to justify it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 4:11 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2015 6:39 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 216 by kbertsche, posted 09-15-2015 11:15 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 210 of 507 (768940)
09-15-2015 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
09-15-2015 4:11 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Q. What is the Third Commandment? ( Remember they renumbered! )
A. The third Commandment is: Remember thour keep holy the Sabbath day.
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
[ The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, 1951 printing, page 50. ]
Q. How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday which Protestants allow of; and therefore THEY FONDLY CONTRADICT THEMSELVES, BY KEEPING SUNDAY STRICTLY, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church."
[ Henry Tubervill, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, 1833, page 58. ]

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 4:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2015 6:23 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 12:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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