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Author | Topic: Catholics are making it up. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Q. What is the Third Commandment? ( Remember they renumbered! ) A. The third Commandment is: Remember thour keep holy the Sabbath day. Interesting. It seems to me that the Sabbath is the subject of the fourth commandment in both Exodus and Deuteronomy. I suppose that must be different in the Catholic Bible. In any event, the commandment says to work six days and rest on the seventh day. It seems that a rest on a seventh day is what nearly every church does, with the question being whether seventh means an ordinal numbering of the days of the week, or merely any day following six other consecutive days. There is also the question of whether the difference even matters. The issue of which of the seven days is the rest day obviously does matter to some folks, but is that fact enough to raise the issue to any real importance? Does it really matter on which weekday our calendar begins? Don't we actually consider Saturday and Sunday the weekend regardless of where we place Sunday on a calendar. Can we really trace the calendar accurately back to seven days of creation, anyway? Does not the entire idea that a particular day matters require a literal reading of Genesis, something that only fundamentalists seem to accept anyway? I understand that there are people who celebrate Christmas on Jan 6th because they believe that the added 10 days to the Gregorian calendar were inappropriate. But that stuff ignores the fact that nobody actually believes Christ was born during December in the first place. The exact day of celebration is a matter of tradition and has no actually religious import. The same is true of the Sabbath. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Yes it certainly does. It clarifies the mental cartwheels you people have to perform in order to explain away a very simple difficulty with your current rules. I would have to agree that the gymnastics involved with Faith's explanation are pretty bizarre. The Jewish Sabbath day is actually sunset Friday till Sunset Saturday. It is not even properly a single day of the week, particularly for people whose primary source of light is artificial and for whom sunset and sunrise don't start and end the day. In any event, instead of speculating or just assuming that you are right, you might consider looking at the explanations given yourself. Searching why Christians worship up on Sunday will uncover the fact that there are various answers given with no one really sure of the right one. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes: Searching why Christians worship up on Sunday will uncover the fact that there are various answers given with no one really sure of the right one. Sure, the 20 minutes or so that I've devoted to this has so far only uncovered that it was changed by the pope and the answer given in the quote above resolved to 'because they could.' It seems to slip happily into the category of 'making stuff up at the moment.' What's even more interesting though is that those that actually believe this stuff and practice it don't know either - and that is appears to flatly contradict the biblical literalist's own practices.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 996 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
NoNukes writes: Searching why Christians worship up on Sunday will uncover the fact that there are various answers given with no one really sure of the right one. In Greek, Saturday is 'Σάββατο' (pronounced 'Savato'). You can see from the spelling that it shares word roots with the word 'Sabbath'. I honestly don't recall the rationale for changing the holy day to Sunday. There are various Christian sects that actually celebrate Saturday as the actual Sabbath. And probably a few pagan sects that are worshiping 'Saturn'. (aka 'Cronus')
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Sure, the 20 minutes or so that I've devoted to this has so far only uncovered that it was changed by the pope and the answer given in the quote above resolved to 'because they could.' It seems to slip happily into the category of 'making stuff up at the moment.' The problem with that bit of research is that worship on Sunday predates the purported changing of the date by the Church. Sunday church services actually date from the first and second century after Christ's death. At best the pope would have established an official policy for the Church by choosing one of the existing practices. Edited by NoNukes, : change chosing to choosing Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
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Tangle writes:
This claim seems to be a good example of something that the Catholic Church "made up."
It's pretty clear that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as a pure policy matter, presumably to make it different from Jewish practice. The protestant believers came along after and didn't bother changing it back to the biblically correct Saturday. Now they have to dissemble to justify it.
There is biblical evidence that Christians had begun meeting on Sunday as early as the first century, long before Constantine, Pope Gregory, or any organized Catholic Church existed:
quote: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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I'll just repeat what kbertsche said now that I have a better idea of what you are saying. The Catholic Church didn't exist in the early years of the Church so whatever is claimed about their changing the day that far back is false.
As KB pointed out the Bible itself says the Church met on Sundays:
Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul began to speak to the people, and because he intended to leave the next day, he extended his message until midnight. Another reference to their assembling on Sunday is:
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
It isn't about belief. It's just that the eastern orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar for religious purposes. We have a lot of Ukrainians around here who celebrate both Christmases.
I understand that there are people who celebrate Christmas on Jan 6th because they believe that the added 10 days to the Gregorian calendar were inappropriate.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
quote:They met because he was leaving on the next day. Presumably, if he was leaving on the fourth day, they could have met on any day before that. quote:That doesn't appear to have anything to do with church meetings.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Nor is Sunday necessarily "the first day of the week". In Jewish tradition the Sabbath is sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. Sunday is considered the first day of the week. In Roman times Monday (Diana's day) was considered the first day of the week.
Long ago and in a land far far away I used to wander over to the Walter's Art Gallery to spend the time while dad was at work. One piece I remember was a beautiful cameo bracelet with the images of the deities for each day; Diana then Mars and Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn plus Apollo for Sunday as was proper.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It has always been understood that those are references to the day of the week the Church met for worship, and there are no references whatever to their meeting on Saturday.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It isn't about belief. It's just that the eastern orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar for religious purposes. Why isn't the use of the Julian calendar for religious purposes a matter of belief? Why is it considered important to use an old calendar that has the problem of having seasons, solstices etc. moving around the calendar over time? Orthodox Christmas Day
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
But they are not. The wording is clear: they met the day before Paul left and no other reason is suggested, nor is it suggested that their meetings followed every seventh day after that. You're making it up.
It has always been understood that those are references to the day of the week the Church met for worship...
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
For the same reason I'm still using Windows XP - I haven't bothered to change; I have no need to change. It isn't because I believe Windows XP is better; it's just good enough.
Why isn't the use of the Julian calendar for religious purposes a matter of belief? NoNukes writes:
It isn't important. They just didn't bother to change. Your own quote says it's a preference, not a belief.
Why is it considered important to use an old calendar...?
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