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Author | Topic: Is Christianity Evil? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I suppose we need to agree on "what their own devices" are....in regards to historic as well as contemporary Christianity.
God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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saab93f Member (Idle past 1415 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined: |
But I agree that was the wrong decision. That does not make God or Christianity evil. That makes what they did evil and the God they created evil. What is the difference? The deity you claimed they created as opposed to an objective, genuine supernatural entity. For me this sounds even more like a cop-out, that God is always good but his followers bad, God gave people freewill but only to Christians and that there really is no true Scotsmen. Yes, you said that the decision those wicked missionaries or Padres made were wrong but so what - the end justifies the means? There is no giving Indians their faith or culture back, no way of recreating the codices and no way to unbreak hearts. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't your justification that those evil people did what they did because they wanted to save the souls of the savages. They thought that was necessary, noone else did. Evil in my book.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Jon, Christianity without people and their interpretation of it doesn't actually exist does it? Of course not. But luckily I never said that it does. Now instead of stalling, how about you present some evidence? Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What is the difference? The deity you claimed they created as opposed to an objective, genuine supernatural entity. For me this sounds even more like a cop-out, that God is always good but his followers bad, God gave people freewill but only to Christians and that there really is no true Scotsmen. But I have not said anything like that. First, I doubt very much that God is either good or evil, moral or immoral. Moral, immoral, even amoral are all just human constructs we use to describe individual assessment of something. All people have freewill. But freewill and freedom are not synonyms. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Tangle writes: Jon, Christianity without people and their interpretation of it doesn't actually exist does it? Jon writes: Of course not. So, this leaves you with work to do to explain what on earth you're talking about doesn't it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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saab93f Member (Idle past 1415 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined: |
Sorry, I thought that your choice of words "the God they created" implying that the real thing was somehow better or more moral than that.
I personally cannot believe in anything more than what we have here and now. That does not mean that I couldn't comprehend the need for "something bigger". For me that is just unnecessary - being good for goodness' sake and enjoying each day is more than enough.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Sorry, I thought that your choice of words "the God they created" implying that the real thing was somehow better or more moral than that. I believe any God we can discuss or folk can describe is a human creation. GOD, if GOD exists is something beyond whatever we might be able to describe. But terms like moral or immoral, good or evil, seem silly when applied to something beyond any comprehension.
I personally cannot believe in anything more than what we have here and now. That does not mean that I couldn't comprehend the need for "something bigger". For me that is just unnecessary - being good for goodness' sake and enjoying each day is more than enough. And that is fine. I have never suggested anyone should believe or not believe in GOD. If GOD does exist, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, then I cannot imagine such an entity really giving a damn about whether or not some human believes in it. My point is that as a Christian I believe we need to acknowledge that other Christians have in the past and still today behave in a despicable manner. We cannot have an easy cop out by pretending God wanted it done or those people were not Christians or that it was not Christian policy. The lesson is that people can and do do horrible things and that we need to acknowledge that fact and try to do better in the future. To return to Christianity I grew up within let me point to a major part of every church service and home service I experienced which is called the Confession. In it we are lead to really think about our behavior and we are expected to do a series of thing, acknowledge when we screw up, be sorry we did so, try to make amends and also to not repeat the acts. It's not enough to just say "Repent" or "Not perfect, just SAVED" or "Jesus forgives my sins" , you need to do.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: But yet we are charged to do....obviously the Deity would logically have to care about our discipline regarding our charge. I have never suggested anyone should believe or not believe in GOD. If GOD does exist, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, then I cannot imagine such an entity really giving a damn about whether or not some human believes in it. It makes me think though...Christianity is only as evil as Christians are...and we can't blame GOD. One minor point of contention. You claim GOD to be "complete" being good and evil. I see GOD as "good". A "complete" GOD would not have as much of a problem with fallible humans doing what they felt to be best...even if those humans were behaving in an evil manor. A "good" GOD, by contrast would be a bit harder to ignore...one would think.God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
People who join organizations may be more susceptible to groupthink and/or crowd mentality than "freethinkers".
Groupthink? Crowd Mentality?
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tangle writes:
I explained: "Most of your objections are common to many religions," etc. Your task would be to show that my explanation is wrong.
Yes they have. Now what? Tangle writes:
I continued explaining: "Women are inferior creatures" is probably as common outside religion as in. Christians may have inherited evil from human nature or borrowed it from somewhere but it's a stretch to suggest that they "invented" anything. Your task would be to back up your claim that religion is the origin of any evil.
Exactly, they're all wrong, we just happened to be discussing Christianity. Tangle writes:
So you admit that the evil came from "power hungry institutions" - e.g. the Roman Empire - not the scatter-brained and disorganized early Christians.
Christianity grew into schismed power hungry institutions from Constantine and before that it was a divisive mess with many variants of your club Christian kicking around saying weird and wonderful things about what they thought it all meant.
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Jon Inactive Member
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I mostly started this thread to see your evidence that "[l]eft to their own devices, religions would be as primitive and destructive as extreem Islam is today".
Remember you said there was evidence? In fact, you said that "there's actually a lot of it" (Message 1025). So where is it, Tangle? Where's your evidence?Love your enemies!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Jon writes: I mostly started this thread to see your evidence that "[l]eft to their own devices, religions would be as primitive and destructive as extreem Islam is today".Remember you said there was evidence? In fact, you said that "there's actually a lot of it" (Message 1025). So you started this thread so that I would do something? I wonder what could be wrong with that? My interest is in how secular institutions have rescued society from primitive, superstitious beliefs and how, over time, that has resulted in a fall in crime (aka evil) I will eventually get around to it. But that's not going to happen for at least 6 months. Feel free to remind me in January.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Sometimes division is what is needed. This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached. It's clear that religions cause divisions between individuals, groups and countries and the more fervant the belief, the more damage they cause.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: Sometimes division is what is needed. For what?
This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached. Generally, Jesus taught 'do as you would be done by' which is a universal, 'kum ba yar' moral message working against division and conflict. Where the Christian message - and most other religious messages - go wrong is claiming to be the one true religion and the only way to various afterlife existences. Some of them believe this to be so true that they go about killing people for it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're misusing Matthew 10:37. Jesus was telling his followers to separate themselves from loved ones who DON'T do the kumbaya thing. He was underlining kumbaya, not rejecting it.
This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached.
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