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Author Topic:   How long does it take to evolve?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(5)
Message 71 of 221 (770120)
09-29-2015 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lamden
09-23-2015 10:34 PM


Once we know the number of mutations needed, the mutation rate , and lifespan, how long would a best-case-scenario human evolution have taken?
To put this question in perspective, let's pose a similar Creationist question. How many joules of energy would be required to transform inanimate material into a living, breathing human being, and exactly what was the mechanism by which God did so. What is a safe wattage to deliver such energy?
Would it be fair to say that if we don't have an answer to such questions that it would be a mark against any hypothesis that God did it?
I don't think this line of argument is worthwhile unless your sole point is to explain what is personally required for you to accept evolution or creation. Questions like these are not a reasonable way to evaluate either hypothesis.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Lamden, posted 09-23-2015 10:34 PM Lamden has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 107 of 221 (770554)
10-07-2015 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Percy
10-07-2015 5:47 PM


Re: Creationist "Unanswerable Questions"
The most amazing thing about irreducible complexity is that a genuine scientist, Michael Behe, thought of it. Shows what evangelical Christianity can do to your mind.
I don't think the concept of irreducible complexity is flawed. The problem is that nobody can manage to find any real examples of irreducible complexity. But that difficulty turns out to be because life on this planet actually did evolve.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Percy, posted 10-07-2015 5:47 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Percy, posted 10-08-2015 7:26 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 221 (770649)
10-10-2015 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by dwise1
10-10-2015 12:29 PM


Re: New Version of MONKEY Uploaded!
And a Mac would just stare at you dumbfounded that you aren't trying to make this a GUI app. And if I did it as a GUI app, then it would be even less portable.
Don't macs have a command line with an OS that is pretty unix like? I know that is the case for the IOS. You might be able to get ncurses to run on the command line. And back in the old days there were versions of ncurses that run on MS-DOS. I don't know if that stuff would work on modern version of windows at the command line, but if so, then maybe using ncurses would be a multi-platform solution.
ABE:
Mac OSX can definitely support ncurses and it may be already installed. A compatible library, pdcurses is available on windows and runs on XP at least, and of course ncurses is available on linux.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by dwise1, posted 10-10-2015 12:29 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2015 12:42 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 221 (770652)
10-11-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by MrHambre
10-11-2015 10:43 AM


Re: DNA as Magical Thinking
iohiohoikl
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by MrHambre, posted 10-11-2015 10:43 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 221 (770659)
10-11-2015 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by dwise1
10-11-2015 6:18 PM


Re: What is plausible, what can be tested
For some odd reason, the "Intelligent Designer" of Life has never done that.
I don't think this is a valid or strong argument.
First, I think an ID proponent could make the argument that there have been some 'back to the drawing board' developments. It seems likely that the various means of flight exhibited between mammals, insects, and birds developed completely independently. Insect eyes are enough different from human eyes to have developed along a completely different path even if there was some common point way back when. Besides that, even for things that look fairly similar, we theorize that there has been independent parallel development that resulted in similar results.
Secondly, while a supernatural designer is not bound to reuse developments, there is nothing preventing such a designer from doing so. If in fact, we could never find diverse solutions to similar problems, that does not suggest very strongly that there was no intelligent designer absent some reason to impute motives to the designer.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2015 6:18 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2015 8:09 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 221 (770665)
10-11-2015 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by dwise1
10-11-2015 8:09 PM


Re: What is plausible, what can be tested
Oh, sure, the ID proponent would say that the Designer was so perfect that She wouldn't have ever had to go to back to the drawing board.
That's actually you putting an argument into someone else's mouth.
NoNukes writes:
Secondly, while a supernatural designer is not bound to reuse developments, there is nothing preventing such a designer from doing so.
dwise1 writes:
And yet we never see that happening. That is what I'm talking about.
I think you've lost track of your own argument. In nature we see certainly do see reuse of designs. Your original position is that a intelligent designer would not reuse designs because he need not do that. And I believe I've provided examples of evolution coming up with diverse solutions, which is what you originally argued (wrongly in my opinion) that an intelligent designer should often do.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2015 8:09 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2015 9:38 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 153 by Percy, posted 10-11-2015 10:07 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 169 by ringo, posted 10-13-2015 12:12 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 221 (770669)
10-11-2015 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Percy
10-11-2015 10:07 PM


Re: What is plausible, what can be tested
This seems like an unwarranted criticism. Wasn't it precisely Faith's argument that the designer would have no need to go back to the drawing board, that all the DNA ever needed was seeded into life at the beginning?
Surely 'Faith said it' is not the standard for what constitutes a reasonable argument.
I see your point. People do use that argument, so it is justified to for someone to repeat it and criticize it. But in my opinion, the argument is both unnecessary to explain reuse and incredibly silly. Yes, attack the argument when someone uses it, but as a method of demonstrating that God would not reuse a design or must resuse a design, the argument stinks.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Percy, posted 10-11-2015 10:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Percy, posted 10-12-2015 8:06 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 221 (770670)
10-11-2015 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by dwise1
10-11-2015 10:39 PM


Re: What is plausible, what can be tested
removed
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2015 10:39 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 221 (770681)
10-12-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Lamden
10-12-2015 2:38 PM


Re: Ok, let's dig a little deeper
D) Even if there is a beneficial mutation somewhere somehow, they are so rare that by the time it happened, the beneficial species would be outnumbered a trillion to one.
I understand that you are using hyperbole, but what species has a trillion members? A new phenotype only has to compete with those animals within its own environment. Sometimes that is a completely new niche in which its peers cannot easily compete with the advantaged phenotype.
If you are going to declare that something is mathematically not feasible, at least get your scenario qualitatively in line with reality.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Lamden, posted 10-12-2015 2:38 PM Lamden has not replied

  
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