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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Evil?
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 106 of 120 (770122)
09-29-2015 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
09-29-2015 7:16 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
Phat writes:

jar writes:

That is what Jesus taught instead of what Paul and Peter and Luke and John tried to market.

Im going to investigate whether there is any real evidence that Jesus had a different message than the fab four. The dispensationalists have ready explanations. The message did change---we see that. There is no evidence that the message was being sold rather than told, however.

LOL

The evidence can never be found from dispensationalists; the evidence is the words actually written in the New Testament; read what is actually written instead of listening to the Carny Snake Oil salesmen.

Of course the message was being sold, what the hell do you think evangelism means or evangelists do; they try to sell their product.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

First is there any evidence of a transformed life?

I would argue that there is evidence in most cases.

If that were actually true then there would be (as the Bible and Jesus said) an obvious difference in behavior so that the transformed stood out as shining examples to all; to heathen, atheist, agnostic, Taoist, animist ...; by their fruits they would be known.

But so far no one has ever presented such evidence and even at the forum what we see is that those who claim to be transformed don't show such characteristics.

Edited by jar, : missed a semidedmiheavicolon

Edited by jar, : and a n't


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 7:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 10-05-2015 8:24 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 107 of 120 (770406)
10-05-2015 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
09-29-2015 8:09 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
Of course the message was being sold, what the hell do you think evangelism means or evangelists do; they try to sell their product.

There is no evidence that Paul was in it for the money nor anyone mentioned in the New testament, except perhaps Judas.

Christs death had more impact than His life.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 09-29-2015 8:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 10-05-2015 9:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 10-05-2015 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 108 of 120 (770411)
10-05-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
10-05-2015 8:24 AM


Re: Marketing A Message
Phat writes:

There is no evidence that Paul was in it for the money nor anyone mentioned in the New testament, except perhaps Judas.

Christs death had more impact than His life.

Come on Phat. There are many more reasons to sell stuff than just money; there is prestige, poser, notoriety, fantasy and there is absolutely no evidence that Paul ever had a job, profession or did any work. He was not a shoemaker, fisherman, carpenter or ditch digger. Yet he had money, food, clothing, shelter.

Unfortunately for many if not most Christians today Christs death does have more impact than His life; which is why so much of Christianity today is but a failed religion based on a failed messiah.

Edited by jar, : man ---> many


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 10-05-2015 8:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 10-05-2015 10:14 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25887
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 120 (770413)
10-05-2015 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
10-05-2015 9:04 AM


Re: Marketing A Message
jar writes:

... there is absolutely no evidence that Paul ever had a job, profession or did any work. He was not a shoemaker, fisherman, carpenter or ditch digger. Yet he had money, food, clothing, shelter.

It is well known that Paul made his living as a tentmaker:

ACTS 18:3

King James Bible
And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And because he was of the same craft, Art, occupation, or trade:

he abode with them; in the same house in which they were:

and wrought; with his own hands, to support himself, for he was a stranger in this place; and as yet here was no church to minister to him; and when there was, he would take nothing of them, that the false teachers, who rose up among them, might not make any handle of it against him, and to the prejudice of the Gospel; though otherwise he thought it his just due to receive a maintenance from the churches; and insisted upon it as an ordination of Christ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 10-05-2015 9:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 110 of 120 (770417)
10-05-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
10-05-2015 10:14 AM


Re: Marketing A Message
Faith writes:

It is well known that Paul made his living as a tentmaker:

Well, no, that is neither well know or really evidenced. Gill of course is another asppologist, making stuff up and rewriting the Bible.

But you are simply taking stuff out of context as usual. Acts 18 is about Paul marketing in Corinth and in fact says that when Jewish beliefs got in the way of his marketing he simply closed up shop and moved the Medicine Wagon to a different part of town and a new audience. His business was not tent making but selling his new religion.

quote:
Acts: 18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.


Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13467
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 111 of 120 (770421)
10-05-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
10-05-2015 8:24 AM


Re: Marketing A Message
Phat writes:

Christs death had more impact than His life.


And you think that's a good thing?

Why did Jesus bother teaching at all if it was only His death that mattered? Was He just trying to provoke the Romans and/or the Jews into killing Him? If so, why wasn't He a lot more provocative? Wouldn't, "Down with Caesar!" instead of, "The meek shall inherit the earth," have gotten Him killed a lot quicker?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 10-05-2015 8:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1371
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 112 of 120 (770429)
10-05-2015 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
10-05-2015 11:03 AM


Re: Marketing A Message
jar writes:

Well, no, that is neither well know or really evidenced. Gill of course is another asppologist, making stuff up and rewriting the Bible.

The biblical text seems pretty clear to me. Maybe a more modern translation would help. Here's the NET Bible:

quote:

Acts 18:3 and because he worked at the same trade, he stayed with them and worked with them (for they were tentmakers by trade).


Also look a bit later in Acts:
quote:

Acts 20:33 I have desired no ones silver or gold or clothing.
Acts 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands of mine provided for my needs and the needs of those who were with me.


According to the book of Acts, Paul worked for a living.

Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


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 Message 110 by jar, posted 10-05-2015 11:03 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 113 of 120 (770430)
10-05-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by kbertsche
10-05-2015 2:56 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
But again, those are all examples of marketing. Even if true they don't indicate Paul as an active tent maker. Perhaps at one time Saul was a tent maker in addition to his primary job of killing followers of Jesus but Paul's sole job seems to be trying to market his new religion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by kbertsche, posted 10-05-2015 2:56 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 10-05-2015 4:22 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25887
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 120 (770436)
10-05-2015 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
10-05-2015 3:00 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
If you are influencing anyone with your slander that's a crying shame. You attack Paul's character even where the scripture goes out of its way to describe him as sacrificing himself for the gospel, as someone who is the least likely of all people to be concerned about his own status, who suffered whippings and beatings and imprisonments in his mission to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ, not something of his own invention. Go read the right hand margin of that site I linked:

ACTS 18:3

And Gill is one of the best of the best commentators on the Bible. Why should we trust your sour made-up hatred of everything truly Christian over these worthies? Sad if anybody takes your comments seriously.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 10-05-2015 3:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 10-05-2015 6:51 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 115 of 120 (770445)
10-05-2015 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
10-05-2015 4:22 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
Faith writes:

And Gill is one of the best of the best commentators on the Bible. Why should we trust your sour made-up hatred of everything truly Christian over these worthies? Sad if anybody takes your comments seriously.

But I have never asked anyone to trust anything I post, I am not a carny conman; instead I ask folk to actually actually read what is written in context, to stop using quote mining and proof texts or simply believing the apologists.

Faith writes:

If you are influencing anyone with your slander that's a crying shame. You attack Paul's character even where the scripture goes out of its way to describe him as sacrificing himself for the gospel, as someone who is the least likely of all people to be concerned about his own status, who suffered whippings and beatings and imprisonments in his mission to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, the gospel of Jesus Christ, not something of his own invention. Go read the right hand margin of that site I linked:

I actually can read Acts 18 and do not need Gill to tell me what it says. In fact I even quoted it in context so that folk can see where verse three fits into the whole.

quote:
Acts: 18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.


But Christianity is NOT the Gospel of Jesus but the creation of others. Jesus was never a Christian, he was born, raised and died a Jew.

The Gospel of Jesus is what Jesus did and preached and taught. All the rest, the Gospels, Epistles, Old Testament, Apocalyptic texts, dogma and particularly all the work of the thousands of apologists out there are their work.

Jesus mission was with and for the living; it revolves around doing, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, educating the children, comforting the sorrowful.

As Christians, that is what we are supposed to be doing.

Edited by AdminPhat, : broken quote


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 10-05-2015 4:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 10-05-2015 11:13 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 10-06-2015 3:19 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25887
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 120 (770459)
10-05-2015 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
10-05-2015 6:51 PM


Re: Marketing A Message
The strange thing is that you are so completely unaware of the fact that when YOU give YOUR interpretation of the Bible, YOUR idea of what it seems to YOU to so clearly say, thinking how YOU read it is just what it says but nobody but YOU reads it that way, that what YOU are doing is acting like the "apologists" you decry. You're being a commentator. And a horrifically bad one. Gill on the other hand is the best of the best.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 10-05-2015 6:51 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 117 of 120 (770463)
10-06-2015 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
10-05-2015 6:51 PM


His Death,Burial, and Resurrection or His Life?
jar writes:

Christianity is NOT the Gospel of Jesus but the creation of others.

While I will agree that some of the dogma was spread for ulterior motives, I believe that much of what was written by others was inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Additionally and probably controversially, much of what is taught and has been taught is of satan. Doctrines of Demons. Admittedly you don't know this. Satan works through the church also, and I will concede that many TV and radio preachers are also his tools of deception.

Many otherwise intelligent people are fooled by delusion. Men such as Richard Carrier, Richard Dawkins, and the late Christopher Hitchens were quite logical, well learned, and yet wrong.

You have said before that the God you believe in could care less whether humans even worship Her. The fact is, however, that Christianity is all about a relationship with Jesus Christ---the closest that GOD can get to we ants. Jesus life was and is important. In my belief He overcame death for a reason---"us" being that reason.

jar writes:

Jesus was never a Christian, he was born, raised and died a Jew.

And what was He when GOD raised Him from the dead?

Jesus once asked Peter who Peter thought He was. Peter told Him that He was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Who do YOU think that Jesus is..(never mind his humanity while on earth).

Why would the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus not be important. To many, it is the core doctrine of the Bible.

Edited by Phat, : edited and better explained


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 10-05-2015 6:51 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 118 of 120 (770682)
10-12-2015 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
07-05-2015 7:56 PM


Re: Dr.Evil on TBN
Phat

Self serving in a monetary sense is one aspect.

But is the Christian attitude of only Christians gaining heaven while the rest of us get hell not just another aspect of a self-centered mind who wants a lot for himself and a lot less for those who do not agree with him and his religion?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 07-05-2015 7:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 119 of 120 (770683)
10-12-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jon
07-05-2015 8:24 PM


Re: Hoping for a Good Discussion...
Jon

If Christianity was a good religion and true to it's beliefs before Constantine bought it, would it not have told him where to go when he sent it out to decimate and kill all others in other belief systems and burn their scriptures?

One of the main commandments is that though shalt not kill, --- yet Christians were quite eager to kill.

Regards
DL


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 Message 6 by Jon, posted 07-05-2015 8:24 PM Jon has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 120 of 120 (770684)
10-12-2015 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
07-06-2015 2:29 AM


Tangle

I would not say so for all religions but agree when talking of the idol worshiping religions like Christianity and Islam.

Note how few problem are encountered when chatting with Buddhists who are not idol worshipers. Mind you, some do not call that a religion as it has no real God type but neither does Gnostic Christianity and it is considered to be a religion.

Regards
DL


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