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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 511 (771908)
10-31-2015 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Straggler
10-31-2015 3:33 PM


Call me a sceptic if you will....
But an account written in an appealing writing style wouldn't normally be considered an evidential basis for concluding that a dead person had come back to life.
Who said anything about "appealing?" They are written the way someone would write a careful account of real events. As Jesus said to the rich man in Hell who wanted to go back and warn his brothers,, some people wouldn't believe even if someone came back from the dead to prove it. So here we have someone who did come back from the dead and there's no way to convince you is there?
But I've said it all already, you aren't persuaded and there's nothing more to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2015 3:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2015 5:11 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 167 of 511 (771909)
10-31-2015 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by PaulK
10-31-2015 2:56 PM


Comes down to faith? No, comes down to honest and fair judgment of the truthfulness and normal perception of other human beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by PaulK, posted 10-31-2015 2:56 PM PaulK has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 168 of 511 (771910)
10-31-2015 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
10-31-2015 5:00 PM


Fair and honest judgement almost always comes down against you. And it does so again.
Your opinions aren't evidence.

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 Message 167 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 5:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 169 of 511 (771911)
10-31-2015 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
10-31-2015 4:58 PM


I don't think writing style is a sensible basis on which to conclude that a dead person actually came back to life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 4:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 7:43 PM Straggler has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 511 (771914)
10-31-2015 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Straggler
10-31-2015 5:11 PM


C. S. Lewis had his flaws of judgment in my opinion, but nevertheless I've always thought he did a good job of answering some kinds of skeptics, such as in the following quotes:
In what is already an old commentary I read that the 4th Gospel is regarded by one school as a 'spiritual romance', 'a poem not a history', to be judged by the same canons as Nathan's Parable, the Book of Jonah, Paradist Lost, or, more exactly, Pilgrim's Progress.
After a man has said that, why need one attend to anything else he says about any book in the world?
Note that he regards Pilgrim's Progress, a story which professes to be a dream and flaunts its allegorical nature by every single proper name it uses, as the closest parallel. Note that the whole epic panoply of Milton goes for nothing.
But even if we leave out the grosser absurdities and keep to Jonah, the insensitiveness is crass - Jonah, a tale with as few even pretended historical attachments as Job, grotesque in incident and surely not without a distinct, though of course edifying, vein of typically Jewish humour.
Then turn to John. Read the dialogues: that with the Samaritan woman at the well, or that which follows the healing of the man born blind. Look at its pictures: Jesus (if I may use the word) doodling with his finger in the dust (Jn 8:6,8); the unforgettable 'And it was Night...' (Jn 13:30).
....I have been reading poems, romances, vision-literature, legends, myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know that not one of them is like this. Of this text there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage - though it may no doubt contain errors - pretty close up to the facts; nearly as close as Boswell. Or else, some unknown writer in the 2nd century, without known predecessors, or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern, novelistic, realistic narrative. If it is untrue, it must be narrative of that kind. The reader who doesn't see this has simply not learned to read.
Exactly what I've been trying to say about the credibility of scripture vs, for instance, the gnostic gospels, but even without any contrast at all it's got all the marks of authentic historical reporting.
On that same page is Lewis' description of his own experience as an author and how the critics did to him exactly what they do to the Bible in interpreting how it was written:
What forearms me against all these Reconstructions is the fact that I have seen it all from the other end of the stick. I have watched reviewers reconstructing the genesis of my own books in just this way.
Until you come to be reviewed yourself you would never believe how little of an ordinary review is taken up by criticism in the strict sense: by evaluation, praise, or censure, of the book actually written.
Most of it is taken up with imaginary histories of the process by which you wrote it.
Yup.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 171 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2015 7:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 171 of 511 (771916)
10-31-2015 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
10-31-2015 7:43 PM


The conclusion that a dead man came back to life cannot sensibly be made based on writing style.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 7:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 3:20 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 172 of 511 (771924)
11-01-2015 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by ringo
10-31-2015 1:07 PM


Depends which words you use
ringo writes:
Faith does not depend on evidence. Yet people who claim to have faith are constantly trying to come up with evidence for their faith. Seems like weak faith to me. You should just admit that there is no evidence for the resurrection and have faith that it happened.
And yet....
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 511 (771925)
11-01-2015 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Straggler
10-31-2015 7:55 PM


The conclusion that a dead man came back to life cannot sensibly be made based on writing style.
Now that isn't what I said, is it? The point was to demonstrate the credibility of the writers, on which I would certainly think the judgment of anything they said does depend. And I mentioned far more than just style, I gave a list of elements that I believe establish their credibility.
How else could we validate the resurrection than by witness reports?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Straggler, posted 10-31-2015 7:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Percy, posted 11-01-2015 8:07 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 184 by Straggler, posted 11-01-2015 11:23 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 174 of 511 (771926)
11-01-2015 3:41 AM


More atheists than Christians in the UK
Some research out this week reckons 43% of the UK population believes that Jesus was resurrected. Which is quite amusing as the same research says that only 9% of the UK population are practicing Christians (attend church once a month or pray).
In fact, at 12% of the UK population, atheists now outnumber practicing Christians (and all other religions).
You have to question what belief in resurrection actually means if so many say they believe a man can be raised from the dead, but so few find it sufficiently impressive to then go on to practice the religion he supposedly died for.
https://www.churchofengland.org/...talking-jesus_booklet.pdf

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 3:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 511 (771928)
11-01-2015 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Tangle
11-01-2015 3:41 AM


Re: More atheists than Christians in the UK
Mostly it means that people don't really know what the Bible says or aren't really thinking it through, and that the atheist propaganda is succeeding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Tangle, posted 11-01-2015 3:41 AM Tangle has replied

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 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 11-01-2015 4:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 176 of 511 (771929)
11-01-2015 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
11-01-2015 3:45 AM


Re: More atheists than Christians in the UK
Faith writes:
Mostly it means that people don't really know what the Bible says or aren't really thinking it through,
Probably both. Which is a pity beacuse if they did read and think about what the bible actually says there'd be a lot more atheists.
and that the atheist propaganda is succeeding.
The only atheist propaganda I've ever seen was an ad on the side of a bus a few years ago. It must have been the most effective marketing campaign in advertising history to have the effect you think it had. Compared to the effort religion puts into its propoganda it was a raindrop in a storm. My tiny little village has three Christian churches and a faith school in it, that's probably an extravagance, but it's a situation more or less replicated throughout the UK.
Every Sunday I have to turn my favourite BBC radio talk show off for 45 minutes as it broadcasts a sickly Christian service to the entire nation. A situation that worsens every Christmass and Easter.
I see from the survey that practicing Christians work predominantly in education - 19% cf only 7% for the general population. I wonder why that is?
And don't get me started on papal visits...
It seems to me that if we're talking propaganda, Christians have a slight edge. (And a 2,000 year start.)
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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 Message 175 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 3:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 177 of 511 (771931)
11-01-2015 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
10-31-2015 4:53 PM


Faith writes:
No. It is evidence. These are not "stories," they are historical accounts and they have all the requisite marks of authenticity and believability.
No. It isn't evidence. Many Biblical accounts are simply made-up stories that are not historical accounts and do not have any of the requisite marks of authenticity and believability.
Now that we've marked out our positions, I guess you can begin presenting your evidence that the Bible is true. Could you start with the talking snake?
Seriously, take the out that this isn't the forum for discussing evidence. Or take the out that whether the Bible is true is off-topic in this thread, since that's what The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy is for.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 4:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 10:24 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 178 of 511 (771933)
11-01-2015 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
11-01-2015 1:26 AM


Re: Depends which words you use
Phat writes:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
What do things not seen tell you? While not worthless, it's kind of limited as evidence, isn't it? For example, nobody saw who broke the window. What does that tell you? Wouldn't things seen tell you a bit more, like a video of kids playing baseball in the street?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 179 of 511 (771935)
11-01-2015 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
11-01-2015 3:20 AM


Faith writes:
And I mentioned far more than just style, I gave a list of elements that I believe establish their credibility.
You mean in Message 161, Message 166 and Message 170? What list? Here's what you said or quoted in arguing that Biblical accounts are true:
  • Seems very plausible to me that all are true because I think the supposed contradictions either aren't contradictions but resolved in terms of different angles of perception, or are actually evidence of authenticity because they reflect the natural misperceptions human beings are prone to, which is more or less what GDR was getting at.
  • They are written the way someone would write a careful account of real events.
Naturally I could have missed some things in your list since there was no actual list, so if there's anything missing just let us know, but otherwise this looks pretty much like you arguing that the particular style means they're true.
What prevents anyone from adopting the style of truth in whatever they say, whether true or not? Isn't that the skill of the flim-flam man?
--Percy

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 Message 173 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 3:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 180 of 511 (771937)
11-01-2015 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
10-31-2015 4:58 PM


Moderator Concern
Hi Faith,
I'm not moderating this thread, but I will step in to express my concern about this since it's been a longstanding issue with you in so many different threads:
Faith writes:
But I've said it all already, you aren't persuaded and there's nothing more to say.
You've been warned about this many times. If you're here to discuss then please discuss. Do not just claim to have already said things, unless you immediately follow it with a restatement or paraphrase of what you said, or a quote from where you said it.
And do not tell people that if they aren't persuaded then you're going to stop discussing. If you're through discussing then leave the thread. Do not say things like "there's nothing more to say" and then keep posting.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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