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Author Topic:   Is it moral for God to punish us?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 81 of 145 (771957)
11-01-2015 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
11-01-2015 12:14 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Faith
We are getting a ways off topic but one last on this trail.
What does your understanding of this passage tell you.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 12:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 12:30 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 83 of 145 (771959)
11-01-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
11-01-2015 12:30 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Faith
Where does our weakness for earthly desires come from?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 12:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 12:40 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 85 of 145 (771961)
11-01-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
11-01-2015 12:40 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Faith
You and I do not read scriptures to the same conclusion and so I leave you with these.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
We seem to agree on the odd thing but literalists used to kill Gnostic Christians when they could for good reasons, to literalists.
Regards
DL

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 Message 84 by Faith, posted 11-01-2015 12:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 95 of 145 (772072)
11-04-2015 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by kbertsche
11-01-2015 1:39 PM


kbertsche
Indeed. Especially the Gnostic Gospels are superior to the canonical because it has not thrown out the wisdom saying from the Nazarene.
Possibly the only decent archetypal Jesus. I think he formed the original Chrestians and Gnostic Christians mystery schools.
Constantine chose the Christians who altered the Chrestian name to Christian while trying to kill off all the free thinkers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&l...
Regards
DL

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 Message 86 by kbertsche, posted 11-01-2015 1:39 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 96 of 145 (772074)
11-04-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by kbertsche
11-02-2015 6:41 PM


kbertsche
The list you seek is within the context of whom Constantine's forces murdered and whose gospels they burned. One of the first chores of the new church.
Nice eh?
Constantine’s laws against free thought and why Christianity became the Western religion.
Here is some history. It's a list of Roman laws starting around Constantine’s time and extending forward from there.
I'll bold and underline the killers for those with limited time.
Quote:
Fourth Century Christianity » Imperial Laws and Letters Involving Religion AD, 364-395
313CE Oct 31
Certain catholic clerics are being harassed by heretics so that compulsory public services are too much for them to bear. They should be relieved of their civic duties, and replacements found, and in the future, clerics should not be forced to fulfill compulsory public services.
318CE June 23
Constantine gives Christians the right to take their cases before an ecclesiastical court rather than a secular court. The ruling of those bishops will carry the same authority as a secular court.
325CE
Constantine exhorts the Alexandrians to follow the Nicene faith, which he praises, and to disavow Arius, whom he condemns. The council is to be regarded as the will of God.
326CE Sept 1
Exemption from compulsory public services shall only be granted to clergy of the Catholic Church, and not to heretics or schismatics.
327CE
Constantine invites Arius to his court, where he may end his exile by confessing the Nicene faith before Constantine. Arius is allowed to use public transportation.
333 or 327CE
Constantine orders that Arians now be referred to as Porphyrians, that all works of Arius or Arians be burned, and that anyone hiding a work of Arius suffer capital punishment.
Constantine sends a long, belittling letter to Arius and his followers. At the end, he threatens to heavily fine the Arians and force them to accept compulsory public services unless they immediately return to the catholic faith. If Arius returns, he promises to be lenient.
341CE
Pagan superstition and sacrifices are completely forbidden, in accord with the law set forth by Constantine.
346CE Dec 1
Pagan temples are to be closed; access to them is denied, and violators face capital punishment.
The property of a violator will be given to the state treasury. Governors who fail to carry out this
punishment will be punished.
347CE
The Donatists were ordered to be reconciled with the Catholic Church in North Africa. Those who refused were to be exiled or killed.
352 July 3
Persons who join Judaism from Christianity, if the accusation can be proven, shall have their property confiscated and given to the state treasury.
353 Nov 23
Night-time pagan sacrifices, which had briefly been allowed under the usurper Magnentius, are again forbidden.
356 Feb 20
Those guilty of idolatry or pagan sacrifices must suffer capital punishment.
362
Julian castigates the pagan Alexandrians, who had murdered Athanasius’ rival archbishop George when he ruined the temple of the local god Serapis. They should not have broken the law, but should have taken out their grievances legally.
No Christians are allowed to teach the pagan classics (essentially debarring them from being teachers).
Any student may study them, however.
370CE Feb 17
Laws formerly enacted against Christians under Julian shall have no validity, and policies of the late Constantius are to be upheld.
372CE Mar 2
Manichaeans and similar groups may not assemble. Their teachers will be punished, their followers segregated, and their places of gathering confiscated.
377CE Oct 17
Any who teaches a second baptism is to desist and be restored to the Catholic Church. The uncorrupted faith of the Evangelists and Apostles must be preserved. Furthermore, properties where re-baptizers or other expelled persons gather are to be confiscated.
379 Aug 3
All heresies are forbidden. One may hold to heretical teachings in his own mind but is forbidden to teach them to others, especially the teaching of re-baptism. Assemblies of those who hold to
re-baptism are forbidden, and none may teach this doctrine.
380CE Feb 28
This edict is sometimes referred to as Cunctos Populos. Everyone in the empire shall be part of the religion that believes in God as a single Deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit — the Holy Trinity, as taught by St. Peter to the Romans, and now taught by Damasus of Rome and Peter of Alexandria. Only those following this rule shall be called Catholic Christians.
Meeting places of those who follow another religion (including heretics of a Christian variety) shall not be given the status of churches, and such people may be subject to both divine and earthly retribution.
381 Jan 10
Heretics shall have no place of meeting. Heretics are defined as those who do not observe the Nicene faith.
The Phontinians, Arians, Eunomians and others are specified, but not exclusively. Their teachings are forbidden.
A definition of the Trinity and the term ousia is established. Catholic churches throughout the empire are to be returned to orthodox bishops. Heretics are to be driven out of the churches and the cities.
The property rights of Manichaeans are revoked, and property inherited from a Manichaean which should have been confiscated by the state is now to be confiscated. Manichaeans are forbidden to gather.
381 May
Christians who have converted to paganism shall not be allowed to make a will, and any will made by such a person is invalidated.
Manichaeans may not inherit property or leave it to others through wills, and any property inherited from a Manichaean is to be confiscated. The only exception is the child of a Manichaean who converts to the Catholic faith. Also, Manichaean assemblies and sacraments are prohibited.
381 July
It is forbidden for Arians, Eunomians, or followers of Aetius to build churches.
If any such churches are built, they will be confiscated.
391CE
Persons with inherited rank or status who abandon Christianity shall lose their position and be branded with infamy.
Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.
so on and so forth... the jackboot is in.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by kbertsche, posted 11-02-2015 6:41 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by kbertsche, posted 11-04-2015 9:25 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 103 of 145 (772097)
11-05-2015 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by kbertsche
11-04-2015 9:25 PM


kbertsche
Do you really believe that there were only 4 gospels that were viewed and chosen from?
What was all the voting on then?
What were all the mystery schools that were decimated teaching from if not other gospels?
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by kbertsche, posted 11-04-2015 9:25 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by kbertsche, posted 11-06-2015 12:47 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 106 of 145 (772116)
11-06-2015 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by kbertsche
11-06-2015 12:47 AM


kbertsche
"The voting and suppression that you mention were post-Constantine, so were fourth century. This is much later. The four canonical gospels had already been distributed, read, and accepted for 200 yers by this time."
So the council of Nicaea decided nothing in particular. Ok.
If they were accepted as you say, then why did all that scripture burning and murder of those who did not like those 4 gospels happen at all?
And if there were no other gospels, why bother forcing the literal interpretation of the 4?
If only 4, what are these other gospels?
List of Gospels - Wikipedia
Here is history and not the fantasy you follow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&l...
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by kbertsche, posted 11-06-2015 12:47 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2015 1:28 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 112 of 145 (772131)
11-06-2015 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by NoNukes
11-06-2015 1:28 PM


NoNukes
I don't really care when the plagiarized and forged documents that made up the cannon were invented. Myth is myth regardless of when written.
The morality of religion is what turns my crank. Not when the myths were invented.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2015 1:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by kbertsche, posted 11-06-2015 9:57 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2015 10:27 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 116 of 145 (772163)
11-07-2015 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by kbertsche
11-06-2015 9:57 PM


kbertsche
Some scholars think they might have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE
I see both the canon and all other gospels as attempts to control the thinking of the masses through a best wisdom saying contest.
So far I prefer the Gnostic Christian free thinking way as compared to the Christian, you have to think my way, idiocy.
To think that wisdom and knowledge of God is only in one plagiarized book is idiocy. That would include the Bible and the Qur'an.
Fairy tales hold more wisdom in many cases as compared with gospels which are fairy tales for adults.
Those fairy tales mostly came from Sumer and Egypt.
2007-Doc Zone - Pagan Christ 1 of 3 - Vido Dailymotion
That is why I prefer to concentrate on the morality of the scripture and not where it is found.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by kbertsche, posted 11-06-2015 9:57 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 11-10-2015 2:19 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 118 of 145 (772199)
11-09-2015 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by NoNukes
11-07-2015 10:27 PM


NoNukes
The delving I did was speaking to the 4 main ones and the plethora of others that were rejected. Not the dating.
Even the oldest they have are plagiarized so timing them is impossible.
Even "Christian" was stolen from what I think was the origins of Gnostic Christianity. Chrestiam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=r...
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2015 10:27 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 121 of 145 (772225)
11-10-2015 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
11-10-2015 2:19 AM


Re: More Gnock Gnock Jokes
Phat
And how can we think his way when Christian theology begins with the notion that God is unfathomable, unknowable and works in mysterious ways.
Tell us all what you know of the unknowable and fathom of the unfathomable.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 11-10-2015 2:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 11-11-2015 1:01 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 126 of 145 (772258)
11-11-2015 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
11-11-2015 1:01 AM


Re: More Gnock Gnock Jokes
Phat
Sure some of what the scribes put in Jesus' mouth makes sense. But Jesus is not the same as the Christ.
I am more concerned as to if what Jesus says is moral or not. Morality is what is important in religion. Not sense, although morality usually makes sense.
But overall, Jesus did not preach a good moral theology.
Take his no divorce for women policy. It is anti-love and anti-equality and just as loathsome as some Muslim policies.
Another issue is his turn the other cheek. Would you tell the Jews walking into the ovens to turn the other cheek or love your enemy?
Only an insane person would in such a situation.
The only way I know of to understand God's thinking is to go within yourself and find out how you think. You are the only God you will ever find.
Do not be a lawyer.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 11-11-2015 1:01 AM Phat has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 127 of 145 (772259)
11-11-2015 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
11-11-2015 2:36 AM


Re: More Gnock Gnock Jokes
Faith
"That spiritual ignorami have no idea what he was talking about?"
Which Jesus are you following?
Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over thembring them here and kill them in front of me.
Jhn 10:11; I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. ... 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Which quote is the false one?
Both cannot be true.
Will Jesus kill us or cure us as a shepherd would when we meet him?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 11-11-2015 2:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 11-11-2015 9:03 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 133 of 145 (772271)
11-11-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
11-11-2015 9:03 AM


Re: More Gnock Gnock Jokes
Faith
Yet Jesus the shepherd said he came for the ill and not the well and you have him killing the ill instead of curing them.
Yours is not a consistent view.
Is Jesus to kill us or cure us at the end of days?
Will he put most of us on that wide path to hell or will he expand his narrow path the heaven to take all those he cures?
Why do you have your God doing more killing than curing?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 11-11-2015 9:03 AM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 134 of 145 (772272)
11-11-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
11-11-2015 9:03 AM


Re: More Gnock Gnock Jokes
Faith
Should a shepherd die for his sheep?
Is a shepherd doing the right thing towards his family if he dies for his sheep and leaved his family fatherless?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 11-11-2015 9:03 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 11-12-2015 11:26 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
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