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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 6 of 508 (772428)
11-14-2015 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
11-14-2015 4:16 AM


God doesn't look so great today, does he?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:36 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 508 (772430)
11-14-2015 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
11-14-2015 4:36 AM


It's the same god Faith - the God of Abraham.
Religion does this sort of thing. Damn the lot of them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 5:35 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 10 of 508 (772432)
11-14-2015 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
11-14-2015 5:35 AM


Satan .... ffs, gods, imaginary agents. Childish bollocks.
PEOPLE do these things; superstitious people deluded by fanatical religious belief.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 5:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 6:07 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 11-14-2015 11:08 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 21 of 508 (772446)
11-14-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
11-14-2015 9:30 AM


Faith writes:
The problem is that Islam is an ideology that preaches violence and death against outsiders.
As does Christianity. The difference is that Christianity manages to ignore its more revolting ideas and was reformed through secular and economic development. Islam has not been reformed and the worst parts of it are still practiced literally in under-developed countries with low education.
Like Christianity, it's going to take centuries to grow up and grow out of its worst aspects. And like Christianity it'll take a few more centuries to merge into a fuzzy sort of general niceness with little reference to its fundamental idiocies.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 9:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:18 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 31 of 508 (772459)
11-14-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-14-2015 12:01 PM


Re: The problem is in our beliefs.
Phat writes:
I totally disagree.
On what grounds do you disagree? Mohammed was a warrior, not a turn the other cheek, meditate quietly type of guy. Parts of the Quran and Hadith can properly be interpreted as the holy jihad of the kind being practiced by these fanatics.
It's unreformed. It needs moderate Muslims to do away with all the primitive abhorrences in their holy books just as liberal Christians have with theirs.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-14-2015 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 45 of 508 (772479)
11-14-2015 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Adequate
11-14-2015 2:16 PM


Dr A writes:
Tangle is being slaughtered by Muslims.
I'm fine so far. You guys will be the first to know.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-14-2015 2:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 508 (772519)
11-15-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Diomedes
11-15-2015 10:52 AM


Re: A Few Details
Diomedes writes:
My personal opinion is there needs to be a ground swell within the Muslim community itself.
The problem with that is that it's not terribly likely to happen.
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
Page not found | Pew Research Center
The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/...line-Poll-Data.pdf

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2015 10:52 AM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 12:12 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-15-2015 1:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 73 of 508 (772525)
11-15-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
11-15-2015 12:57 PM


Re: A Few Details
And around 50% of American Christians believe in literal creationism somewhere around 6,000 years ago and another large percentage believe that the world will end in their lifetime and that homosexuals are an abomination. Oh, and that carrying a loaded gun around in schools is a great idea.
And yet, things go along more or less ok and society progresses despite these stupid and dangerous ideas. It progresses because of liberal democracies, secular institutions of law and social services, scientific advancement and beliefs in freedom and tolerance.
This too will pass. In the meantime, this atheist understands that he must help those fleeing for their lives and do the Christain thing of do as you would be done by. Even if those that call themselves 'true' Christians prefer to forget that most important teaching of their religion.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 12:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 78 of 508 (772530)
11-15-2015 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
11-15-2015 1:20 PM


Re: A Few Details
Ringo writes:
I'm neither young nor Muslim but I believe suicide bombings are as justifiable as bombing Muslims.
Do you also believe that the motives for both actions are equivalent?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-15-2015 1:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 11-15-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 508 (772532)
11-15-2015 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
11-15-2015 1:30 PM


Re: A Few Details
Faith writes:
It is not the Christian thing to do for governments to force their citizens to perform any kind of charity against their will. God loves a cheerful giver, not a coerced giver, but the whole Marxist PC game is coercing people against their will.
We call this democracy Faith. Society has progressed a little beyond individuals taking in the passing traveller - we live in societies measured in millions not tens. We devolve our Christian responsibilities to elected Christian governments to do these things on our behalf.
Now you would be doing the Christian thing if you invited a refugee family into your home and put yourself out for them. You let us know when you've done your Christian duty now.
Can I remind you that I'm the atheist and you're the supposed Christian, yet it's you that would turn those in need away and admonish your own 100% Christian government to refuse help.
Go figure as you guys say.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 89 of 508 (772541)
11-15-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
11-15-2015 2:04 PM


Re: A Few Details
Ringo writes:
As far as I'm concerned, killing people is killing people and it's hard to distinguish one killer from another.
Really? The killing of Jews in WW2 has the same moral equivalence as those that killed to liberate them?
If you're going to bomb the bombers, you might as well have capital punishment too. Then we're no better than they are.
In international law, it's illegal to kill without trial for retributive reasons (punishment), the legal justification for the killing of the John character was defence.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 11-15-2015 2:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Dogmafood, posted 11-16-2015 9:08 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 10:41 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 95 of 508 (772574)
11-16-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dogmafood
11-16-2015 9:08 AM


Re: A Few Details
ProtoTypical writes:
but what is the difference between intentionally killing innocent people and accidentally killing innocent people?
Intent.
When they targeted John, they tracked him for months and killed him when there was little to no chance of also killing innocent people. When the terrorists killed, their intent was to kill as many innocent people as they possibly could.
We in the West are responsible for the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the last decade. Hundreds of thousands.
I'm not going to defend this, I think we made bad mistakes doing what we did after 9/11.
Our morality is for shit if we tolerate the killing of innocents as a legitimate cost of our own security.
Well I doubt the integrity of the people that got us into this place too, but it would be wrong to say that the West has a policy of killing innocents in the way that our enemies do and therefore equate the two. I'd also point out that our strategies are intended to be defensive rather than acquisitive and that all out war has these terrible consequences. At the moment it seems that the drones and bombs are simply the least worst tactics to employ.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dogmafood, posted 11-16-2015 9:08 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dogmafood, posted 11-16-2015 6:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 96 of 508 (772575)
11-16-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
11-16-2015 10:43 AM


Re: A Few Details
ringo writes:
They are indeed still killing people.
Well that was profound.
Your "defensive" measures aren't working.
Which is, of course, a different argument.
The first was about legitimacy and it's widely accepted that self-defence is legitimate, the second is about effectiveness.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 11:16 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 128 of 508 (772632)
11-17-2015 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dogmafood
11-16-2015 6:17 PM


Re: A Few Details
PT writes:
Well yes that is the difference but is it enough for self-absolution?
It can be yes. If you don't accept that, then you have to declare yourself a pacifist and be prepared not to defend yourself against those that don't share your moral qualms.
Intent doesn't offer much of a defense to the drunk who accidentally kills someone even if he tries really hard not to.
I don't quite follow this argument. People are still responsible for their actions even when drunk. Normally being drunk is taken as an aggravating factor in an offence not a mitigation. The mens rea argument is only available to those who lack the mental capacity to know what they were doing not to those who deliberately put themselves out of capacity.
The intent of the shooter doesn't make any difference to the shot at.
Of course. But it also doesn't make any different to the situation. Do you bomb Nagasaki and kill thousands of innocent people but save the lives of your own citizens, or not? It's an argument that really only has individual answers. If you believe it's always wrong to kill a non-combatant, you would oppose all war.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dogmafood, posted 11-16-2015 6:17 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2015 11:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 168 of 508 (772711)
11-18-2015 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Dogmafood
11-17-2015 11:39 PM


Re: A Few Details
PT writes:
OK then I am good with that.
Fine, pacifism is an honourable, if naive, position.
My point is simply that I don't know why we should be able to do things as a collective that we find to be immoral at the level of the individual. Or why we don't see the hypocrisy of suspending our principles of justice when we try to extract that justice from foreigners. Or the hypocrisy of accepting the killing of innocent people as a reasonable cost of retaliation for the killing of innocent people.
But you know that we do. The bombing of Nagasaki and Dresden are extreme examples of it. The argument is that it is for the greater good. In the situation we are in now, our side goes to extreme lengths not to involve non-combatants whilst admitting that some are inevitable. Our side does not deliberately target them and it makes doing so a war crime.
I guess if you support drone strikes in Syria then you would support them in your own neighbourhood should there be a suspected killer on the loose? No?
Now that's just silly. We have other methods available to us on our own territory; extreme methods are not necessary, we only use the drones because they are the least worst option.
But suppose there was a situation where the only way to prevent another twin towers was to shoot down the terrorists' plane over a populated area with the certainty of innocent deaths, but many less, what should be done? These are the sorts of moral issues we're dealing with.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2015 11:39 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Dogmafood, posted 11-18-2015 10:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
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