Another one that hurts

This is a bad one, see any news source.AbE: November 2015 Paris attacks--PercyEdited by Percy, : Add link to Wikipedia entry.

At least 127 people were murdered last night in terrorist attacks at Paris cafes and restaurants, France's national stadium, and a crowed concert hall. Eight terrorists are known to have died at this time, seven by suicide bombs and one shot and killed by Paris police. The Islamic State has claimed responsibility.How do we make this stop? Is this like 1940, when it became apparent that peaceful measures had failed and that putting the dictator back in his box would be a formidable challenge? Are we again a year or two late in keeping local troubles from blossoming into a major threat to world peace and stability?--Percy

I believe that atrocities like this are bred from circumstances of despair and hopelessness and a sense of powerlessness. We have to fix the Middle East. The unending Palestinian/Israeli brawl must end. We must understand that there is no such thing as nation building. Continuity is essential, so as distasteful as Saddam Hussein was and Bashar al-Assad is, overthrowing them only makes things worse. We were wrong to depose Hussein, and Russia is right in trying to prop up al-Assad.How do we remove despair and hopelessness and a sense of powerlessness? Give them something positive to focus on. Continue to encourage (that's not a synonym for interfere) Middle Eastern countries toward greater economic and political hope. Don't allow refugee camps where families raise their children all the way to adulthood. Either enable them to become productive and successful in their homeland, or allow them to emigrate somewhere that that's possible. Regarding immigration, western countries can either let those in troubled circumstances into their borders peacefully or risk the threat of festering incubators of terrorism throughout a broad region.The days when we can successfully solve problems by projecting our power into foreign regions are over. While thrid world countries and local armies can't beat determined western armies, they can make it very expensive and very lengthy, and they can make the homelands of the western countries suffer greatly through terrorism. It isn't like the Korean or Vietnam wars where our armies were over there and our civilians were safe and sound over here. In today's world the civilians are also in danger.--Percy

I asked questions in my first paragraph and proposed a few general answers in the second, but they might be summed up by saying that people are less likely to become terrorists when they have hope and opportunity, and we should do our best to insure that happens.I share your assessment of the difficulty of the Palestinian/Israeli problem.--Percy

Yes, very true. But the more hope and opportunity in one's life, the less likely one is to radicalize. I'm not sure that's a reasonable expectation. There was no ground swell among the German people against Hitler - for the most part they supported him. He gave them hope after the despair of their World War I defeat and the harsh terms that followed. As distasteful as the means of radical Muslim factions must be to the mainstream, they *are* fighting toward goals many Muslims share. Here, here!--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

For you it seems that sentiments that begin something like "If there were more pacifism..." are akin to "If pigs could fly..." I don't disagree.But what I would say is that we have created a monster that we may now have to slay, and that might require the very kind of indiscriminate killing we abhor. I hope we simultaneously make every effort to find peaceful solutions, but we're at the point where we can't wait for them.--Percy

In today's New York Times: In Rise of ISIS, No Single Missed Key but Many Strands of BlameI had wrongly assumed that the Islamic State was a recent "bright idea" to resurrect an old glory, but direct roots date to at least 2004.--Percy

An editorial in today's New York Times endorses the idea of providing positive alternatives to fundamentalist Islam: Cabs, Camels or ISISA couple excerpts:

quote:

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I believe U.S. foreign policy out here should progress as follows: Where there is disorder, help create order, because without order nothing good can happen.
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To sustainably defeat bad ISIS Sunnis you need good non-ISIS Sunnis to create an island of decency in their place.

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--Percy

Earlier you said: And now you say: I don't know if it could be considered accurate to say there's no such thing as an Islamic leader, if that's what you're saying. You can find the phrase "Islamic leader(s)" all over the Internet: Wikipedia article on Islamic religious leaders.If I get what you're generally saying then I agree with much of it, but if you're ruling out the possibility of an Islamic leader then it's making it more difficult for me to follow your arguments.--Percy

I wasn't going to get back into this, but I just don't understand. Why aren't "Islamic Leaders" and "Leaders of Islam" synonyms? Are "Catholic Leaders" and "Leaders of Catholicism" not synonyms either?--Percy

I think Blair is a mystery to us over here. The big mystery is why he ever followed Bush in the first place. All the evidence that there weren't really any weapons of mass destruction was available to all the allies the US approached while attempting to form a coalition. Jacques Chirac of France could see this, Blair couldn't, or he just felt bound to support his US ally no matter what.I recently heard a security analyst comment that the US is number one on the Islamic State's list of evil nations, and that France is number two. Seems like Great Britain should be number two.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Typo.

Depends upon context. Today "Brobdingnagian" is an adjective with a specific meaning that wouldn't be interpreted as associating the modified noun with the fictional nation of Brobdingnag, but in Swift's novel where Brobdingnag is a real place a "Brobdingnagian leader" would be the same thing as a "leader of Brobdingnag."For non-fictional places the two forms are even more obviously synonymous in many contexts: "Canadian Leader" and "Leader of Canada", etc.I understand there's a distinction you're trying to draw, but I think it's going to be an exceedingly fine one for most people, one that's very difficult to keep in mind and one that's a significant distraction from your main point. Can't you make your point without insisting on this distinction?--Percy

I could easily be wrong, but I think Modulous originally mentioned the possibility of atheists in positions of Islamic leadership as a way of making the point that some might have the same goals (e.g., peace) but non-Islamic motivations. He later argued as a sort of side note that organizations the Taliban would be very attractive to psychopaths, who probably exist in similar numbers in Islamic regions as in the west. Again, I could easily be wrong, but I think Modulous was saying that most people do not think their actions evil, that those in positions of Islamic leadership, and indeed even the rank and file, believe that what they're doing is for the ultimate betterment of the both themselves and the world.--Percy

You think Modulous is saying we're all the same as terrorists? That wasn't my interpretation.I thought Modulous was reacting to discrimination against all of the Islamic faith because of the actions of a few, and in your next message you seem to make clear that you understand this point very well. But you continue on to argue that some societies are better than others, and that some bad Islamic dogmas must be reformed before Muslims can be considered as good as us. It's almost as if you're saying, "Sure, at heart Muslims are just as good as everyone else, but they've been infected by bad Islamic dogma that must be reformed before they can become acceptable to the west."If I've understood you correctly then I think your brush is much too broad.--Percy

This only makes sense to me if you thought Tangle was saying we should put more pressure on immigrants to assimilate. I thought he was saying the opposite. Whatever the case, I must be completely not understanding at least one of you.Perplexed.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.