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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 61 of 508 (772501)
11-14-2015 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Coyote
11-14-2015 9:02 PM


But, those who are coming to the west for refuge have an obligation too.
Sure they do and most of them will meet that obligation given half a chance. In so doing they will enrich us all.
I say let them come both good and bad. The good will be good for us and the bad will show themselves.
To paraphrase, 'let them do their worst and we shall do our best.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Coyote, posted 11-14-2015 9:02 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Coyote, posted 11-14-2015 10:49 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 62 of 508 (772502)
11-14-2015 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dogmafood
11-14-2015 10:41 PM


Better avoid large crowds then...
I'd advise going armed but you're deprived of that choice.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 11-14-2015 10:41 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-14-2015 10:55 PM Coyote has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 508 (772503)
11-14-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Coyote
11-14-2015 10:49 PM


Better avoid large crowds then...
I'd advise going armed but you're deprived of that choice.
It's a choice that hasn't particularly helped Americans avoid terrorist attacks. A good guy with a gun is not particularly effective against the detonation of a bomb. If everyone running the Boston Marathon had been armed, for example, it probably wouldn't have helped.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Coyote, posted 11-14-2015 10:49 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Coyote, posted 11-14-2015 10:59 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 64 of 508 (772504)
11-14-2015 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
11-14-2015 10:55 PM


The pattern we're seeing more often is a mix of bombs and automatic weapons.
An armed populace would be effective against that, while all the gun laws out there wouldn't prevent terrorists from acquiring guns.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-14-2015 10:55 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-14-2015 11:50 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 65 of 508 (772505)
11-14-2015 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Coyote
11-14-2015 10:59 PM


The pattern we're actually seeing is that in no case has an armed populace been effective against a terrorist attack. Maybe if the terrorists ever decide to use small arms to attack a Walmart in Texas.
Curiously, the gun-lovers always tell us that if guns were banned than people would just use some other method of killing their enemies. The problems with this thesis are sufficiently obvious to occur to anyone who isn't a gun-lover. However, terrorists, who do not kill on impulse, do have plenty of time to choose their weapons, and if they ever contemplated a situation where using the wrong weapon would lead to them being shot by virtuous civilians, they could incorporate that into their planning and use another weapon. And this is in fact what has happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Coyote, posted 11-14-2015 10:59 PM Coyote has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 66 of 508 (772507)
11-15-2015 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Percy
11-14-2015 9:21 AM


Re: A Few Details
We have to fix the Middle East.
How do you suggest we do that? The last time we tried, we started the chain of events that led to ISIS and to this latest terrorism.
The unending Palestinian/Israeli brawl must end.
How? I don't think it can be done.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 11-14-2015 9:21 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 11-15-2015 8:03 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 67 of 508 (772512)
11-15-2015 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by nwr
11-15-2015 12:21 AM


Re: A Few Details
I asked questions in my first paragraph and proposed a few general answers in the second, but they might be summed up by saying that people are less likely to become terrorists when they have hope and opportunity, and we should do our best to insure that happens.
I share your assessment of the difficulty of the Palestinian/Israeli problem.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by nwr, posted 11-15-2015 12:21 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2015 10:52 AM Percy has replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(4)
Message 68 of 508 (772518)
11-15-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
11-15-2015 8:03 AM


Re: A Few Details
I asked questions in my first paragraph and proposed a few general answers in the second, but they might be summed up by saying that people are less likely to become terrorists when they have hope and opportunity, and we should do our best to insure that happens.
There is more complexity to that problem. People who become radicalized actually come from all walks of life. A good portion of the young people going to join ISIS/ISIL are actually from decent families. Many of the 9/11 hijackers were well educated.
My personal opinion is there needs to be a ground swell within the Muslim community itself. I understand fully this is not easy, but ultimately, any actions taken by the West are just used to fuel the fires of hatred and actually end up giving terrorist groups more propaganda to use in getting new recruits.
From the USA's perspective, as a country, there are things we can do. How about not electing idiot halfwit cowboys that take us into senseless wars, destabilize entire regions and then leave a quagmire wrapped in a clusterfuck in their wake?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 11-15-2015 8:03 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 11:42 AM Diomedes has not replied
 Message 92 by Percy, posted 11-16-2015 10:04 AM Diomedes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 508 (772519)
11-15-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Diomedes
11-15-2015 10:52 AM


Re: A Few Details
Diomedes writes:
My personal opinion is there needs to be a ground swell within the Muslim community itself.
The problem with that is that it's not terribly likely to happen.
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
Page not found | Pew Research Center
The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/...line-Poll-Data.pdf

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2015 10:52 AM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 12:12 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-15-2015 1:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 70 of 508 (772520)
11-15-2015 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
11-15-2015 11:42 AM


Re: A Few Details
And all over the west they are admitting more of these guys?
Safer to kiss a rattlesnake.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 11:42 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 12:57 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 508 (772523)
11-15-2015 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Coyote
11-15-2015 12:12 PM


Re: A Few Details
You're not getting it, Coyote. Rattlesnakes need love too, and this is all about love PC style. Safety? Nah, We'll just be extra nice to them and help them overcome their despair and they'll be good to us too, just one big happy family. Besides, what's a few rapes and suicide bombings in the great scheme of things anyway. I mean the incidence is negligible.
If they outnumber us and we all come under Sharia law that's OK too, cultures are really all the same anyway you know, except that western civilization is evil evil evil, haven't they been telling us that since the sixties? Oh maybe you weren't around that far back when they were chanting Western Civ has got to go. Funny, you know, it's pretty much gone now but a few million more Muslims should really seal the deal if there's any question..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 12:12 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 1:13 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 508 (772524)
11-15-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
11-14-2015 1:20 PM


Faith writes:
Opportunity for what?
My grandparents were immigrants. Why wouldn't any newcomers contribute as much as they did?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 73 of 508 (772525)
11-15-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
11-15-2015 12:57 PM


Re: A Few Details
And around 50% of American Christians believe in literal creationism somewhere around 6,000 years ago and another large percentage believe that the world will end in their lifetime and that homosexuals are an abomination. Oh, and that carrying a loaded gun around in schools is a great idea.
And yet, things go along more or less ok and society progresses despite these stupid and dangerous ideas. It progresses because of liberal democracies, secular institutions of law and social services, scientific advancement and beliefs in freedom and tolerance.
This too will pass. In the meantime, this atheist understands that he must help those fleeing for their lives and do the Christain thing of do as you would be done by. Even if those that call themselves 'true' Christians prefer to forget that most important teaching of their religion.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 12:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 74 of 508 (772526)
11-15-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
11-15-2015 11:42 AM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
I'm neither young nor Muslim but I believe suicide bombings are as justifiable as bombing Muslims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 11:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2015 1:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 1:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 508 (772527)
11-15-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Tangle
11-15-2015 1:13 PM


Re: A Few Details
...this atheist understands that he must help those fleeing for their lives and do the Christain thing of do as you would be done by.
It is not the Christian thing to do for governments to force their citizens to perform any kind of charity against their will. God loves a cheerful giver, not a coerced giver, but the whole Marxist PC game is coercing people against their will.
Now you would be doing the Christian thing if you invited a refugee family into your home and put yourself out for them. You let us know when you've done your Christian duty now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 1:13 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-15-2015 1:38 PM Faith has replied
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 1:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
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