Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(3)
Message 91 of 508 (772569)
11-16-2015 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
11-15-2015 3:02 PM


Re: A Few Details
Really? The killing of Jews in WW2 has the same moral equivalence as those that killed to liberate them?
I would disagree with ringo's claim that all killing is morally equivalent but what is the difference between intentionally killing innocent people and accidentally killing innocent people?
How can it be acceptable for a guy like Col Steve Warren to say things like: "We are reasonably certain that we killed the target that we intended to kill". He was referring to 'jihadi john'.
How Jihadi John was tracked down in Syria - BBC News
I fully support getting a stick in the spokes of these guys but we can't abandon our principles of justice while seeking that justice. We in the West are responsible for the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the last decade. Hundreds of thousands.
The only high ground that we look down from is through the lens of a predator drone. Our morality is for shit if we tolerate the killing of innocents as a legitimate cost of our own security.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 3:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2015 10:49 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 92 of 508 (772571)
11-16-2015 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Diomedes
11-15-2015 10:52 AM


Re: A Few Details
Percy writes:
There is more complexity to that problem. People who become radicalized actually come from all walks of life.
Yes, very true. But the more hope and opportunity in one's life, the less likely one is to radicalize.
My personal opinion is there needs to be a ground swell within the Muslim community itself.
I'm not sure that's a reasonable expectation. There was no ground swell among the German people against Hitler - for the most part they supported him. He gave them hope after the despair of their World War I defeat and the harsh terms that followed. As distasteful as the means of radical Muslim factions must be to the mainstream, they *are* fighting toward goals many Muslims share.
From the USA's perspective, as a country, there are things we can do. How about not electing idiot halfwit cowboys that take us into senseless wars, destabilize entire regions and then leave a quagmire wrapped in a clusterfuck in their wake?
Here, here!
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2015 10:52 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Diomedes, posted 11-16-2015 11:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 508 (772572)
11-16-2015 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
11-15-2015 3:02 PM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
The killing of Jews in WW2 has the same moral equivalence as those that killed to liberate them?
The fire raid on Dresden was the moral equivalent of the Holocaust. From there, it's a sliding scale all the way to lily-white, peachy-keen, hugging-bunnies-and-kittens killing.
Tangle writes:
In international law, it's illegal to kill without trial for retributive reasons (punishment), the legal justification for the killing of the John character was defence.
You can't defend yourself against Jihad John or Osama Bin Laden by killing their followers. That just creates more of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2015 3:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 94 of 508 (772573)
11-16-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dr Adequate
11-15-2015 3:13 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
As Tangle points out, this isn't retributive, it's not like ISIS has stopped killing people and now we're dealing out rough justice. They're still going about killing people, it's a crime in progress, one long killing spree.
They are indeed still killing people. Your "defensive" measures aren't working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-15-2015 3:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2015 10:52 AM ringo has replied
 Message 101 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:09 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 95 of 508 (772574)
11-16-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dogmafood
11-16-2015 9:08 AM


Re: A Few Details
ProtoTypical writes:
but what is the difference between intentionally killing innocent people and accidentally killing innocent people?
Intent.
When they targeted John, they tracked him for months and killed him when there was little to no chance of also killing innocent people. When the terrorists killed, their intent was to kill as many innocent people as they possibly could.
We in the West are responsible for the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the last decade. Hundreds of thousands.
I'm not going to defend this, I think we made bad mistakes doing what we did after 9/11.
Our morality is for shit if we tolerate the killing of innocents as a legitimate cost of our own security.
Well I doubt the integrity of the people that got us into this place too, but it would be wrong to say that the West has a policy of killing innocents in the way that our enemies do and therefore equate the two. I'd also point out that our strategies are intended to be defensive rather than acquisitive and that all out war has these terrible consequences. At the moment it seems that the drones and bombs are simply the least worst tactics to employ.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dogmafood, posted 11-16-2015 9:08 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dogmafood, posted 11-16-2015 6:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 96 of 508 (772575)
11-16-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
11-16-2015 10:43 AM


Re: A Few Details
ringo writes:
They are indeed still killing people.
Well that was profound.
Your "defensive" measures aren't working.
Which is, of course, a different argument.
The first was about legitimacy and it's widely accepted that self-defence is legitimate, the second is about effectiveness.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 11:16 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 97 of 508 (772576)
11-16-2015 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Percy
11-16-2015 10:04 AM


Re: A Few Details
I'm not sure that's a reasonable expectation. There was no ground swell among the German people against Hitler - for the most part they supported him. He gave them hope after the despair of their World War I defeat and the harsh terms that followed. As distasteful as the means of radical Muslim factions must be to the mainstream, they *are* fighting toward goals many Muslims share.
Not exactly. Keep in mind that Hitler received only received 37% of the vote in 1932. The vast majority of people likely had an inkling of his true motives. But alas, once in power, he used an iron fist to quell any dissidents. And also note that members of his own military tried to eliminate him with Operation Valkyrie. Which almost succeeded.
There is a distinction however in that 'Muslims' are not a country. They are a religion that spans numerous countries and regions. As such, there are various differing voices within that large group. The problem is, the loudest voices are the radical ones. What needs to change is much stronger condemnation coming from the moderates as well as more active regional policies in the Middle East to deal with the problem of radicalization.
To draw an analogy, the craziest Christians we have in this country are the idiot Phelps family that protests at soldier's funerals. What often happens now is when they try to stage another protest it is actually other Christians that step in and basically 'shield' the proceedings to ensure the grieving family is not disturbed. This is the same sort of thing that needs to occur within the Muslim community.
I see something similar needing to happen within the Middle East. If you look at the size of the standing armies in that region, they outnumber ISIS by about 200 to 1. But of course, things get more complex as geopolitics come into play. Even for the USA, crushing ISIS helps Asad AND Putin. Which is why I ultimately think we need to stay out of it, since there is no positive endgame for us. Not to mention we have a habit of causing a mess anytime we try to solve problems in the Middle East.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Percy, posted 11-16-2015 10:04 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 508 (772578)
11-16-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Tangle
11-16-2015 10:52 AM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
Your "defensive" measures aren't working.
Which is, of course, a different argument.
The first was about legitimacy and it's widely accepted that self-defence is legitimate, the second is about effectiveness.
Pardon me for having two reasons for not killing people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 11-16-2015 10:52 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 508 (772580)
11-16-2015 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
11-14-2015 1:22 PM


Re: A Few Details
So , you want them to return to their homes
What homes??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 1:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 11-16-2015 12:02 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 100 of 508 (772582)
11-16-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ramoss
11-16-2015 11:36 AM


Re: A Few Details
Actually I think the Arab ountries should take more of them.
The Washington Post said a while back now, The Arab world’s wealthiest nations are doing next to nothing for Syria’s refugees .
As Amnesty International recently pointed out, the "six Gulf countries Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees." This claim was echoed by Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ramoss, posted 11-16-2015 11:36 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:30 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 101 of 508 (772586)
11-16-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
11-16-2015 10:43 AM


Re: A Few Details
They are indeed still killing people. Your "defensive" measures aren't working.
Because we haven't shot them all yet.
If a whole bunch of ... let us say white supremacists ... invade a shopping mall and start shooting, then at the point at which the police have taken down two of them and the rest are still shooting, do the police need to consider a different tactic such as holding up a sign saying "WE SURRENDER"? --- because they are still killing people, so the measures taken by the police aren't working?
Look, I don't like this. I don't like war. But the fact is that if these people aren't stopped (and there is no way to stop them except by force, because carefully reasoned polite argument hasn't worked) then they will carry on. And in doing so, given their track record, they will make Pol Pot look like Mary Poppins.
If you have a better idea, then this would be a great time to suggest it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 12:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 508 (772590)
11-16-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Dr Adequate
11-16-2015 12:09 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
If a whole bunch of ... let us say white supremacists ... invade a shopping mall and start shooting, then at the point at which the police have taken down two of them and the rest are still shooting, do the police need to consider a different tactic such as holding up a sign saying "WE SURRENDER"? --- because they are still killing people, so the measures taken by the police aren't working?
The police should put down their signs that say, "Join the White Supremacists".
Dr Adequate writes:
(and there is no way to stop them except by force, because carefully reasoned polite argument hasn't worked)
On the contrary, the way to stop them is by carefully reasoned polite argument directed at the people who are thinking of joining them. It's force that isn't working. It's just creating more of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:09 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:48 PM ringo has replied
 Message 107 by Diomedes, posted 11-16-2015 2:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 103 of 508 (772593)
11-16-2015 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
11-16-2015 12:02 PM


Re: A Few Details
Actually I think the Arab ountries should take more of them.
Well of course they should, but what if they don't?
You remember the parable of the Good Samaritan? At no point in that parable did Jesus say: "Well, since the priest and the Levite passed by on the other side, and they should have helped him, therefore the Samaritan would have been blameless if he'd also passed by on the other side."
BTW, are you familiar with the Good Samaritan Experiment? Something to think about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 11-16-2015 12:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 11-16-2015 12:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 104 of 508 (772595)
11-16-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
11-16-2015 12:22 PM


Re: A Few Details
The police should put down their signs that say, "Join the White Supremacists".
That does not correspond to anything in the analogy, since U.S. propaganda does not encourage people to join ISIS.
On the contrary, the way to stop them is by carefully reasoned polite argument directed at the people who are thinking of joining them.
But that doesn't stop them. People are certainly doing that sort of argument. Today I read a story about a thousand Muslim clerics who'd signed a fatwa against people who joined ISIS. Good. It will stop people from joining them. Hooray. But it will scarcely sway one in ten thousand people who are already involved in this ideology and who have already murdered a Christian or a homosexual in the name of Allah. They are raping and killing, they will go on doing so if unchecked. They will stop when we win. The people who are already doing this shit are already beyond polite argument and civil requests for them to stop. They will stop when we win. They will stop when we win. They will stop when we win.
Let's win.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 11-16-2015 12:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 10:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 508 (772596)
11-16-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Dr Adequate
11-16-2015 12:30 PM


Re: A Few Details
I'm all in favor of helping out people who need it, what bothers me in this case is that Muslims ARE ticking bombs for joining the jihad, and at the very least are not inclined to oppose those who engage in it.
If you personally want to help, do it, that's the Christian thing to do, since all you nonChristians are bragging about how more Christian you are than Christians are, but 1} forced charity is not charity so do it yourself and don't coerce your neighbor into it, and that means all heads of state instead of imposing this burden on their citizens;
and 2) the Samaritan was not dealing with a potentially dangerous needy person and so far nobody on your side is addressing this unfortunate reality in the case of Muslims.
You also seem to be blind to the stated objectives of Islam, which include bringing about the world caliphate by POPULATING FOREIGN NATIONS with Muslims. Instead of denying the real problems that have occurred with Muslims in foreign countries, and pretending this is just a matter of people needing help, you'd have more credibility if you addressed these real concerns. Such as the roughly 25% opinion among them that it's good to blow up "infidels," and so on.
How about considering OTHER ways of being a good Samaritan to the refugees without forcing them on people their religion objects to?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 2:53 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 109 by Modulous, posted 11-16-2015 3:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024