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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 508 (772623)
11-17-2015 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by dwise1
11-17-2015 12:30 AM


Why your sources should be any more trustworthy than Robert Spencer escapes me but who cares anyway. Even if it's by someone else, and again, I have no reason to trust your source, it's nevertheless the truth about Islam.
But of course anything to distract from that truth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2015 12:30 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 508 (772624)
11-17-2015 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by dwise1
11-17-2015 12:34 AM


Not ironic, it's false and that's why I left it out. Christianity has God to defend us, we certainly don't need science.
But as usual you lie about the Christian view of science. We do not regard evolution as science. True science is held by Christians in high esteem.
So stop lying about us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2015 12:34 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2015 12:48 AM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 123 of 508 (772625)
11-17-2015 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
11-17-2015 12:39 AM


Faith, my main problem with Christianity are Christians. And Christians, especially "true Christians" have proven themselves to be notorious liars. Actual Christians are mindful of the truth, but "true Christians" demonstrate time and again that they hate the truth.
Sadly, it has gotten to the point that whenever a "true Christian" says anything, we must suspect it as a falsehood until we can verify it. That is especially true of creationists (I have personally witnessed a local creationist tell one deliberate lie after another and display immense dishonesty on all matters) and Religious Right historical revisionists.
If you had followed that link, you have seen the link to Blunt's own work at https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA267&dq=%22transcenden.... Then you would have seen it for yourself. Not that you would ever do such a thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 12:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 1:00 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 508 (772626)
11-17-2015 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by dwise1
11-17-2015 12:48 AM


You are a liar. Robert Spencer is not a Christian, he's a Jew, and rather than lying I'm sure his sources made a mistake. And I did follow the link you gave. It went to a Wikipedia statement about Blunt. In any case it's the truth about Islam, which is the main point here, and distracting from it is lying, and calling people who make mistakes liars is also lying.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2015 12:48 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2015 1:12 AM Faith has replied
 Message 133 by Admin, posted 11-17-2015 8:26 AM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 125 of 508 (772627)
11-17-2015 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
11-17-2015 12:36 AM


Did Spencer cite his source for that quote? Did you then go to that source to verify that that is indeed what JQ Adams had written?
If Christian revisionist historians are anything like creationists, they just borrow from each other and then cite the "sources" their fellow "historians" "cited" without ever looking at the original.
An example of that by creationists is described on my page, Moon Dust. Leading creationists used a "1976" NASA document ("written well into the space age") to support their claim that direct measurement of meteoric dust in showed that a 4.5 billion year old moon would be covered with a layer of meteoric dust over 200 feet thick. They all cited that "1976" NASA document, but when I pulled it off the university library shelf I immediately saw that they had never laid eyes upon it themselves. It was a collection of papers presented at a 1965 conference and it was printed in 1967. All they ever did was copy the claim from another creationist along with that creationist's "citation" and fraudulently claimed it as their own.
There's an on-line book (a PDF file), "Liars for Jesus", when researches into Christian revisionist historians' claims. The author examines a claim and the versions of that claim as it appears in several Christian "history" books and points out who had borrowed from whom. Then the author goes to the actual historical documents to see what the truth behind those false claims is. It is very enlightening, though it does get into a lot of detail.
So, Faith, did Spencer cite his source for that JQ Adams quote? Did you go to that source to see what Adams actually said? Or whether he had said it at all?
And surely even you must realize that if you continue to use liars as your sources, we will not be able to believe anything that you say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 12:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 126 of 508 (772628)
11-17-2015 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
11-17-2015 1:00 AM


No, Faith, I am not a liar. I have no reason to lie, since I am not a creationist. And even less of a reason to lie since I am also not a "true Christian".
Yet again, did Spencer cite his source? What was the citation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 1:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 7:23 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 127 of 508 (772631)
11-17-2015 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
11-17-2015 12:14 AM


But what drives people to adopt a particular ideology?
Why are young men and women educated in societies that find these actions abhorrent and raised by peaceful parents, taking themselves to the Middle East to train as Jihadists and suicide bombers?
You can say the ideology in question is to blame but how do we explain what drives people towards the adoption of that ideology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 12:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 7:44 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 128 of 508 (772632)
11-17-2015 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dogmafood
11-16-2015 6:17 PM


Re: A Few Details
PT writes:
Well yes that is the difference but is it enough for self-absolution?
It can be yes. If you don't accept that, then you have to declare yourself a pacifist and be prepared not to defend yourself against those that don't share your moral qualms.
Intent doesn't offer much of a defense to the drunk who accidentally kills someone even if he tries really hard not to.
I don't quite follow this argument. People are still responsible for their actions even when drunk. Normally being drunk is taken as an aggravating factor in an offence not a mitigation. The mens rea argument is only available to those who lack the mental capacity to know what they were doing not to those who deliberately put themselves out of capacity.
The intent of the shooter doesn't make any difference to the shot at.
Of course. But it also doesn't make any different to the situation. Do you bomb Nagasaki and kill thousands of innocent people but save the lives of your own citizens, or not? It's an argument that really only has individual answers. If you believe it's always wrong to kill a non-combatant, you would oppose all war.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dogmafood, posted 11-16-2015 6:17 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2015 11:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 129 of 508 (772633)
11-17-2015 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Straggler
11-14-2015 11:57 AM


Re: A Few Details
ISIS do think that. But I am with Percy in the sense that such an extreme ideology wouldn't appeal to so many if it weren't for the fact so many effectively have lost hope to the point that platitudes like "violence solves nothing" are laughable. When it comes down to it what else is there but to rise up without regard for your life if you don't consider the future worth living?
You're wrong.
The ones committing these acts are not poor and beaten down. They are almost all Muslim immigrants to the West who have lived well in the lap of Western success, many having advanced educations and a good deal of money.
Indeed, given the resources required, it is pretty much impossible for poor dumb people to take part in such aggressions.
Their motivations are religious and ideological. Pretending they are anything else is to ignore all reality in a search for explanations secular minds find more cozy and understandable.
Blinders solve nothing.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 11-14-2015 11:57 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 11:03 AM Jon has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 508 (772634)
11-17-2015 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by dwise1
11-17-2015 1:12 AM


The true motivations of Islam
I didn't get the quote from Spencer so I don't know how he referenced the source of that quote.
Why do you make so much of a misattributed quote? Everybody here does that. Why not just say oops misquote but deal with the content anyway.
It's annoying that it wasn't Adams but I'm trying to make a point about Islam, that you can't deal with it by normal assumptions about human nature and circumstances, all that psychbabble people have been putting up, or even the idea that they are angry about being bombed. That's NOT what moves them. Islam moves them and Islam is an ideology that tells them God wants violent attacks on "infidels" and will reward them with all the sex they could ever want. And that's what Churchill and Blunt, though apparently not Adams, say about it. Also Montesquieu in 1748:
It is a misfortune to human nature, when religion is given by a conqueror. The Mahometan religion, which speaks only by the sword, acts still upon men with that destructive spirit with which it was founded.
And my source for all the quotes, including the Adams misquote is
HERE
I already said it's ideology -driven anyway. You don't need to know a lot about Islam to figure that out, so all this western PC psychobabble really has no excuse in this context. Believing that God himself wants you to behave in this way and will reward you is ALL that is motivating them. They think they are serving God.
Part of their ideology also prescribes lying to nonMuslims to further the cause of Islam. This is what they do in the endless Palestinian State flap. They do not want a Palestinian State or they could have had it a dozen times by now and with all sorts of help from Israel and the west too. No, get it straight: They want Israel DEAD. Period. And everything they do works to that end. Israel is the infidel in their midst and that's all there is to it. Stop trying to get them to think like westerners, they don't and they never will as llong as Islam is their master. They'll go along with your silly "peace plans" to mollify the world for a while and then they'll turn it all down. They absolutely cannot and will not adapt to this world as it is. It's all or nothing for the Islamic State.
YOu can't deal with this by material aid, by well-intentioned "understanding" of their difficult circumstances or by war either, unless the war is severe enough to dissuade them from continuing their jihad. YOu cannot persuade them to an alien worldview either. Dealing with an ideology that is thought to have been given by God and is violently enforced by your culture is something else entirely. Those cultures prohibit evangelizing too of course and will behead those that try, but persuading them to Christ in great numbers would be my solution. Not any more practically possible than any of the others proposed here, unless missionaries are willing to go in by the hundreds or thousands trusting in the true God but prepared to die for the cause.
From the same source linked above:HERE'S a talk by an ex-jihadist who also makes it clear that you can't cure the problem of Islam with the usual silly ideas westerners throw at it, that it is an IDEOLOGY.
HOWEVER, I did not tell anyone not to give aid to the refugees, I just said you have to take all this into account and THEN decide how to handle it. It requires creative solutions, not the usual PC assumptions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2015 1:12 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2015 5:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 131 of 508 (772635)
11-17-2015 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Straggler
11-17-2015 3:02 AM


Islam is enforced, not "adopted"
But what drives people to adopt a particular ideology?
You can ask that about westerners who are finding Islam attractive for whatever reason and I don't really know the answer to that. But people born and raised Muslim are saturated with it from infancy, taught to hate everything nonMuslim and told it is God who says all this. They don't "adopt" Islam, it surrounds and owns them and enforces its claims with the endless threat of violence. You do not have the option of not believing in Islam in a strongly Muslim country, that is a crime worthy of death.
Why are young men and women educated in societies that find these actions abhorrent and raised by peaceful parents, taking themselves to the Middle East to train as Jihadists and suicide bombers?
They are Muslims and they don't stop being Muslims. There are probably agents in the west who have a role in persuading them to the cause at some point and encourage them to go get trained. I don't know the routes taken, but they are Muslims and don't stop being Muslims.
You can say the ideology in question is to blame but how do we explain what drives people towards the adoption of that ideology?
Again, that's a question for the westerners who are converting and it would be good to have a clear answer to that question. But for people raised under Islam it is enforced by violence as it always was, starting with Mohammed who slaughtered people for refusing it. Now it is maintained by the violence of the Islamic State and the radicals in every generation, but the less violent Muslims are going to stay Muslim wherever they are anyway. If nothing else it's the air they breathe, so much a part of their culture they have no options. Unless they convert to Christ knowing He's the true God and can protect them. That does happen. But converting to secularism? I'd be interested to know if that ever happens, if it does it's extremely rare.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Straggler, posted 11-17-2015 3:02 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 508 (772636)
11-17-2015 8:10 AM


Supposed moderates can turn in a flash to radicals
Here's another quote from that same website linked above, under the title How Socialism and Islam work together to destroy France. This was just the opinion of one Frenchman the guy interviewed in 2006 but it echoes stuff I've been hearing all along. After giving an analysis of how France is being subjugated to Islam, he describes how apparently assimilated Muslims turn out not to be, that's the way Islam works:
He said that for 30 years, Muslims and non-Muslims worked side-by-side in French factories and businesses. Everyone thought the Muslims had assimilated. But when the Islamic riots started in France last year, these Muslims "flipped in a second"they immediately supported the riots. Their non-Muslim friends said to them, "We thought we knew you - this is wrong, what they are doing, burning cars and rioting." But the supposedly-assimilated Muslims supported the rioters.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 133 of 508 (772639)
11-17-2015 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
11-17-2015 1:00 AM


Faith Suspended One Month
Faith writes:
You are a liar.
Hi Faith,
I'm not moderating this thread, but this has nothing to do with the topic. You know this is against the Forum Guidelines, and your statements that you don't care about evidence are also a concern. See you in a month.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 1:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 134 of 508 (772643)
11-17-2015 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dr Adequate
11-16-2015 12:48 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
That does not correspond to anything in the analogy, since U.S. propaganda does not encourage people to join ISIS.
Sure it does. Your entire foreign policy is a recruiting poster for terrorists.
Dr Adequate writes:
They will stop when we win.
You can't win by recruiting more of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2015 12:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:10 PM ringo has replied
 Message 149 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 508 (772644)
11-17-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Diomedes
11-16-2015 2:05 PM


Re: A Few Details
Diomedes writes:
Despite all the Boogeyman notions of ISIS, they are a fighting force of approximately 20,000-30,000 fighters driving Toyoto pickup trucks. Turkey's army alone stands at 1 million strong and has advanced military hardware.
Remember Vietnam? The Americans were using 4 million dollar jet aircraft to blow up 400 dollar bamboo bridges. The next night the bridges were rebuilt but the downed aircraft and their pilots took a lot longer to replace. The Viet Cong were using bicycles to bring supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Try catching a bicycle in the jungle at night.
Appropriate technology tends to trump expensive technology.
Unfortunately, the Middle Eastern nations are following the bad example of the US. Bombing people back to the Stone Age doesn't work when they're already too close to the Stone Age.
Diomedes writes:
But as stated before, without the paradigm shift in how radical Islam is being allowed to thrive and more efforts within the Muslim committee on curbing it at its source, we won't achieve long standing results.
"We" won't achieve long standing results, period. They have to solve their own problems. When we meddle in their problems, they tend to spill over into our back yard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Diomedes, posted 11-16-2015 2:05 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Diomedes, posted 11-17-2015 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
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