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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 508 (772645)
11-17-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon
11-17-2015 5:47 AM


Re: A Few Details
Jon writes:
The ones committing these acts are not poor and beaten down. They are almost all Muslim immigrants to the West who have lived well in the lap of Western success, many having advanced educations and a good deal of money.
It isn't unusual for people with education and money to want to help their brethren who are poor and beaten down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 137 of 508 (772646)
11-17-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Straggler
11-16-2015 5:21 PM


Once upon a time . . .
STRAG writes:
Well..Yes. But if we broke all ties with Saudi Arabia, pulled all Western troops out of Middle Eastern nations, ended all drone and plane attacks and evacuated Israel of Jews so that it could be completely reclaimed by Palestinians - I still don't think that would stop ISIS pursuing their aims as they would consider all of that little more than a decent start to the new world order they desire.
*Blink*
Did you read any of my links, particularly the last one?
Hmmm. Okay, here's a little bed time story . . .
Straggler Sr. and little Straggler Jr. are walking down the street one day. Far down a bleak and dark alley, Straggler sees a dirty five-year-old street urchin. "Come with me Junior" says Straggler Sr. as he takes his son by the hand. With considerable time and effort, over broken boxes and intoxicated bums, they reach the homeless child. Junior watches his dad produce from under his mac, a two-by-four plank with nails protruding from it. "Here ya go" Straggler says as he gives the urchin the weapon. The street-child promptly takes his new plaything and clubs a homeless mother into a bloody mess.
Straggler Sr. and Straggler Jr. continue their walk. They stop every few blocks so that Straggler Sr. can give another weapon to another young street-urchin. Whereby the urchin immediately clubs another down-on-their-luck person.
Straggler Jr. is bewildered. With tears welling up in his little eyes, Junior asks, "Daddy, why do you continue to give these violent youngsters weapons?"
Straggler Senior get's down on his one knee. "Well you see Junior . . . even if I stopped giving weapons to violent children, I still don't think that would stop them from pursuing their aims as they would consider all of that little more than a decent start to the new world order they desire."
Little Straggler junior thought about those words to himself. Even at his young age, he knew his father was correct, he could hardly prevent other people's actions. But, thinking further still, we CAN control our OWN actions. So what IS important is what OUR moral actions are. Shouldn't we simply do the right thing, regardless of other people's actions?
Most children reach the older teenage years when they discover that their old man is not a moral superhero.
But for little Straggler Junior, he found out much sooner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Straggler, posted 11-16-2015 5:21 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2015 3:14 PM dronestar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 138 of 508 (772648)
11-17-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ringo
11-17-2015 11:03 AM


Helping The Brethren
It isn't unusual for people with education and money to want to help their brethren who are poor and beaten down.
They're the ones who are doing the beating down. Literally. As for people being poor, the people in this refugee camp have not undergone a sudden accession of wealth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 11:03 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 12:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 139 of 508 (772649)
11-17-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
11-17-2015 10:38 AM


Recruiting Poster
Sure it does. Your entire foreign policy is a recruiting poster for terrorists.
Oh, a metaphor. Well in that case it's a recruiting poster with the slogan "Be A Terrorist And We'll Kill You" superimposed on a picture of the corpse of Bin Laden. Is there some sort of fine print where we also offer them an excellent dental plan and four weeks paid leave?
Sheesh, ringo, their desire to create a hell on Earth is not primarily motivated by the fact that some people are trying to stop them from doing so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 12:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 142 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 12:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 140 of 508 (772650)
11-17-2015 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 12:00 PM


Re: Helping The Brethren
Dr Adequate writes:
ringo writes:
It isn't unusual for people with education and money to want to help their brethren who are poor and beaten down.
They're the ones who are doing the beating down. Literally. As for people being poor, the people in this refugee camp have not undergone a sudden accession of wealth.
I was referring to a possible reason why rich Muslims might want to help poor Muslims. Whether their "help" actually helps is irrelevant when we're talking about their motivation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 141 of 508 (772651)
11-17-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 12:10 PM


Re: Recruiting Poster
Dr Adequate writes:
Well in that case it's a recruiting poster with the slogan "Be A Terrorist And We'll Kill You" superimposed on a picture of the corpse of Bin Laden.
Exactly. When people want to die for their cause, killing them is not the way to defeat them. It's the way to encourage them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:43 PM ringo has replied
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 11-17-2015 1:34 PM ringo has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 142 of 508 (772652)
11-17-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 12:10 PM


Bush's 'crusade'
I think many have interpreted Bush Jr's use of the word 'crusade'
as a recruiting poster for Afghans or Iraqis or Muslims to fight against invaders.
Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists
Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists - CSMonitor.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:51 PM dronestar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 143 of 508 (772653)
11-17-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ringo
11-17-2015 12:13 PM


Re: Helping The Brethren
I was referring to a possible reason why rich Muslims might want to help poor Muslims.
Well, in this instance, they don't. It's not like they're all muddled, and they look at pictures of that refugee camp and think "Well, we sure helped them out of poverty. Thanks to us they have the bountiful largess of a refugee camp, where they live in luxurious tents." Nor do they behead a homosexual and say "Well, he was 'beaten down' by, I dunno, the French Mandate in Syria which ended in 1943, but now he can walk tall." They are --- surely? --- not confused on this point. They don't "want to help poor Muslims", they want to carry out the will of God as they understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 12:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 10:47 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 144 of 508 (772654)
11-17-2015 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
11-17-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Recruiting Poster
Exactly. When people want to die for their cause, killing them is not the way to defeat them. It's the way to encourage them.
And if the Nazis had thought they'd get 72 virgins if they died for Hitler, we should probably still have shot at them.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 10:52 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 145 of 508 (772656)
11-17-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by dronestar
11-17-2015 12:23 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
I think many have interpreted Bush Jr's use of the word 'crusade'
as a recruiting poster for Afghans or Iraqis or Muslims to fight against invaders.
That is true. I said so myself. That was inadvertent propaganda for their side. On the other hand, if each bullet that hits one of them is a "recruiting poster", then let's carry on until they run out of people who can be recruited by the promise of being shot. There aren't all that many of them, and we have plenty of bullets.
A man who runs amok with a gun in a mall expects that eventually the police will turn up and shoot him. It's a particularly florid form of "suicide by cop". But if on the basis of that consideration the police took a vow never to intervene in mass shootings, do you suppose the death rate would go down ... or up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 12:23 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 2:57 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 146 of 508 (772658)
11-17-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
11-17-2015 10:51 AM


Re: A Few Details
Remember Vietnam? The Americans were using 4 million dollar jet aircraft to blow up 400 dollar bamboo bridges. The next night the bridges were rebuilt but the downed aircraft and their pilots took a lot longer to replace. The Viet Cong were using bicycles to bring supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Try catching a bicycle in the jungle at night.
Appropriate technology tends to trump expensive technology.
Unfortunately, the Middle Eastern nations are following the bad example of the US. Bombing people back to the Stone Age doesn't work when they're already too close to the Stone Age.
Which is why effective intelligence networks and better collaboration between NATO members would be prudent. Maybe we all should spend less time spying on each other's leaders and focus on the actual intelligence gathering that would help prevent these types of attacks.
Additionally, some smarter spending in the military is warranted. We have these expensive and quite frankly, antiquated military projects that do little to help our security and are more geared towards maintaining the military industrial complex. Fleets of aircraft carriers, support ships and ballistic missile submarines are too Cold War focused. But as you stated, I don't need a million dollar cruise missile to blow up a camel in the desert.
"We" won't achieve long standing results, period. They have to solve their own problems. When we meddle in their problems, they tend to spill over into our back yard.
And this is what I have stated before. However, I would argue that we do need to be more vocal about confronting the issue of radicalization and some of the less tolerant views that still permeate within the Islamic community. Often times, we place political correctness on some sacrosanct pedestal and anyone that states something, even a basic fact, is immediately labeled as 'intolerant'. This is actually diametrically opposed to the true notion of free speech and free assembly. You can't have an effective dialog if people are continuously hissing and pointing fingers at you for some perceived 'slight' you have made in deference to either them or some religious group.
We all recognize that various cultures are 'different'. But different does not always equate to equal. The USA and Europe are 'different', but share many core values. Europe and Saudi Arabia are completely different from the standpoint of their views on equality and tolerance. But enough with the 'they are just different' mantra. Europe's society is BETTER than that of Saudi Arabia. Secular values are BETTER than religious hegemony. Equality of the sexes is BETTER than oppression of women. Democracy and the rights of the people are BETTER than monarchies and subjugation of the population. There is no debate here and we shouldn't pussy foot around those notions.
Edited by Diomedes, : Fixed typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 10:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:03 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 147 of 508 (772662)
11-17-2015 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
11-17-2015 12:16 PM


Re: Recruiting Poster
Ringo writes:
Exactly. When people want to die for their cause, killing them is not the way to defeat them. It's the way to encourage them.
Well they better get ready for some grade A encouragement in the coming weeks from France, Russia, and the USA.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:04 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 148 of 508 (772664)
11-17-2015 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 12:51 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
Dr Adequate writes:
On the other hand, if each bullet that hits one of them is a "recruiting poster", then let's carry on until they run out of people who can be recruited by the promise of being shot. There aren't all that many of them, and we have plenty of bullets.
You are, understandably, angry. So am I.
Dr Adequate writes:
A man who runs amok with a gun in a mall expects that eventually the police will turn up and shoot him.
Does this sound like something a Muslim parent in Fallujah would also express after the "bad man" lied about weapons of mass destruction, invaded her nation, destroyed her city, and then shot down her two young sons in cold blood?
Fallujah, The Hidden Massacre - Wikipedia
All I am saying is, reserve SOME of that anger to the people (Bush Jr, Blair, voters who wanted bloodshed) who supported fanatical violence and their actions which precipitated this recent killing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:11 PM dronestar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 149 of 508 (772666)
11-17-2015 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
11-17-2015 10:38 AM


Re: A Few Details
Your entire foreign policy ...
Also, no. Do please tell me about my "entire foreign policy". I was passionately and vocally against the Iraq war. I went around saying very loudly that Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld should be tried as war criminals. It may be well and cogently argued that the behavior of those criminal shitlords got us into this mess. But ringo, that's not an argument that now, in the face of this evil, we should sit on our hands and wash them. The question is: what should we do now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 11-17-2015 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:09 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 150 of 508 (772667)
11-17-2015 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by dronestar
11-17-2015 2:57 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
It turns out I've already answered you in my last post, we must have been posting at the same time. I am so angry at Bush (etc, 'cos he was too dumb to know what he was doing) that I want him to be tried as a war criminal. Fine. But what should we do now? Should we roll over before evil because Bush was a bad man?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 2:57 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 3:36 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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