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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 151 of 508 (772670)
11-17-2015 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 3:11 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
DrA writes:
But what should we do now?
We are angry because we loudly protested Bush/Blair/voters NOT to invade Iraq. With impending doom ahead, instead of putting on the car brakes, they stepped on the gas pedal. We have left the edge of the cliff years ago and are currently rapidly advancing downward.
What can be done now? Good question, I don't know.
But it would need mankind to evolve at an incredible rate.
I am betting on the cockroaches.
1.61803 thinks some grade A encouragement is the answer. But it seems I heard that type of Algonquin-Round-Table-thinking 12 years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:50 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 165 by 1.61803, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 PM dronestar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 152 of 508 (772671)
11-17-2015 3:37 PM


The Question
Fuck it. Here it is. Sometimes it seems that the best thing you can do is kill someone. This is an appalling truth, but there it is. If I had a gun pointed at Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi then I'd pull the trigger. And if I found that difficult to live with afterwards, then given what he is going to do, I'd find it much harder to live with letting him live. This is, let me say it again, an appalling truth. Both options, if they stood before us, would haunt us in our dreams because we wish not to kill.
Fortunately, I am never going to be in that situation. But when we consider American foreign policy, we are all kind of in that situation, 'cos, y'know, democracy.

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2015 3:56 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 153 of 508 (772675)
11-17-2015 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by dronestar
11-17-2015 3:36 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
We are angry because we loudly protested Bush/Blair/voters NOT to invade Iraq.
I already know what made me angry. But ...
What can be done now? Good question, I don't know.
Well, I have a solution. Let's bomb the crap out of them until we win.
I hate this, AND IF YOU HAVE A BETTER SOLUTION ...
No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 3:36 PM dronestar has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 154 of 508 (772677)
11-17-2015 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 3:37 PM


Re: The Question
Well said.
I think we could all (ok, most of us - there may be a Cheney/Blair fan or two on here I guess) agree that huge mistakes were made in the recent (and not so recent past).
Acknowledged.
My view, however, is that those mistakes only partially caused what is happening in the Middle East (and to a lesser degree) in the West right now. I personally think that it facilitated it more than it caused it.
Regardless of semantics, however, the evil of ISIS is theirs to own. Blair/Cheney et al have their own crosses to bear - but right here, right now, we need to work out how to stop these particular evil arseholes from murdering as many innocents as they feel like.
Distasteful as it may be, that will almost certainly involve doing our best to kill as many of them as possible.
The wise thing to do in addition, is to try to engage in a more enlightened way with the mainstream of Muslims while we do it.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:37 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:17 PM vimesey has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 155 of 508 (772679)
11-17-2015 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by vimesey
11-17-2015 3:56 PM


Re: The Question
vimesey writes:
agree that huge mistakes were made
No vimesey! (You're killin' me vimesey, you're killin' me) Not "huge mistakes." Rather, war crimes. Crimes. Of. War.
vimesey writes:
My view, however, is that those mistakes war crimes only partially caused what is happening in the Middle East
No. There was no Taliban in Iraq before it was invaded. There was no Al Qeuda in Iraq before it was invaded. There was no ISIS in Iraq before it was invaded.
The Iraqi invasion precipitated where we are today.
The findings at the Nuremburg Trial:
quote:
aggression is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.
That is why Bush Jr, Blair, and Hitler are in the same league.
(Screw Godwin, they are all war criminals)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2015 3:56 PM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2015 4:31 PM dronestar has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 156 of 508 (772680)
11-17-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by dronestar
11-17-2015 4:17 PM


Re: The Question
You're fighting a battle that is irrelevant to what I was saying, dronestar. The amount of shit I could give as to whether you describe Blair/Cheney's actions as a huge mistake or a war crime, when it comes to fighting fuckers who like to throw gay people off buildings, right here, right now, right today can be measured in fractions by a gnat with constipation.
Prosecute your betes noires at your leisure - but focus on today's evil bastards too.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:17 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:37 PM vimesey has replied
 Message 158 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 4:39 PM vimesey has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 157 of 508 (772682)
11-17-2015 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by vimesey
11-17-2015 4:31 PM


Re: The Question
If we don't learn from our mistakes war crimes, then we repeat them.
Say heil to Hitler when you see him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2015 4:31 PM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 4:41 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 163 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2015 5:17 PM dronestar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 158 of 508 (772683)
11-17-2015 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by vimesey
11-17-2015 4:31 PM


Re: The Question
What vimesey said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2015 4:31 PM vimesey has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 159 of 508 (772684)
11-17-2015 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by dronestar
11-17-2015 4:37 PM


Re: The Question
Say heil to Hitler when you see him.
When you say hi to Hitler, explain to him how the unfair terms of the Versailles Agreement mean that we shouldn't have fought against him in WWII. He'll agree.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:37 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:53 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 160 of 508 (772685)
11-17-2015 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 4:41 PM


Re: The Question
You know very well when Hitler starts his tirades, there's no squeezing in words edgewise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 4:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 5:00 PM dronestar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 161 of 508 (772686)
11-17-2015 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by dronestar
11-17-2015 4:53 PM


Re: The Question
You know very well when Hitler starts his tirades, there's no squeezing in words edgewise.
I just thought of a great way of shutting him up. We could kill him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:53 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 5:06 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 162 of 508 (772687)
11-17-2015 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 5:00 PM


Re: The Question
I wouldn't be averse to executing war criminals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 5:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 5:18 PM dronestar has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 163 of 508 (772688)
11-17-2015 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by dronestar
11-17-2015 4:37 PM


Re: The Question
Ok, one last go.
What Blair/Cheney etc did was utterly indefensible. The only reason I waiver on the war crime definition is the sheer desire to see innocent people suffer which people like Mengele exhibited, and which makes war criminals like them truly worthy of the name. I don't think that Blair/Cheney et al were psychopathic - just criminally irresponsible and self-serving.
This is semantics, however. I agree they were criminally irresponsible, and deserve punishment.
I agree also that their actions contributed to the mess we see in the Middle East today - I apportion some blame to them. Some, not all - because you would have to be stunningly stupid to believe that the situation in the Middle East were that simple that you could blame it all on the actions of a few Western politicians in the 90s/noughties.
However, where I refuse to go is to excuse the sort of evil depravity that ISIS are inflicting (hugely in Syria/Iraq and to a lesser degree in the West) on innocent people, by entirely blaming Western politicians. I repeat - they own their own evil.
We have a choice, right now, here and today. We can sit back smugly, our liberal credentials all shiny and admirable for the adoring pacifist audience, and let the suffering of untold thousands stand and grow in support of our glorious perspicacity. Or we can say, OK, Cheney/Blair were criminals, yes, job done - but we now need to fight these new fuckers as best we can. And whilst that involves not repeating the mistakes of the past if we can, it also involves doing everything we can to stop a fresh evil.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 4:37 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 9:01 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 164 of 508 (772689)
11-17-2015 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by dronestar
11-17-2015 5:06 PM


Re: The Question
I wouldn't be averse to executing war criminals.
Splendid. There's a whole lot of them right now going about Syria and Iraq committing war crimes. Should we wait until they feel a fit of remorse and turn themselves in to an international war crimes tribunal, or ...
Hey, I just had this great idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 5:06 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 9:26 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 165 of 508 (772693)
11-17-2015 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by dronestar
11-17-2015 3:36 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
Hi dronestar,
What can be done now? Good question, I don't know.
ISIL has to be stopped. Why? Because they are fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things.
It is not like they can be bartered with and bought off like the mongol horde dude. Do you agree they have to be literally stopped form doing what they are doing?
dronestar writes:
But it would need mankind to evolve at an incredible rate.
Maybe accelerationism would bring about our collective demise, passively allowing the complete dismantling of all Infidel and non Sharia civilizations. This would in turn lead to a new beginning for novoman Where we could build our new pacifist utopia on the bones of our rapacious intolerant ancestors.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 3:36 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 10:12 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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