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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 166 of 508 (772699)
11-17-2015 7:03 PM


It's good to see that some American values haven't changed.

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(3)
Message 167 of 508 (772709)
11-17-2015 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Tangle
11-17-2015 3:02 AM


Re: A Few Details
If you believe it's always wrong to kill a non-combatant, you would oppose all war.
OK then I am good with that.
My point is simply that I don't know why we should be able to do things as a collective that we find to be immoral at the level of the individual. Or why we don't see the hypocrisy of suspending our principles of justice when we try to extract that justice from foreigners. Or the hypocrisy of accepting the killing of innocent people as a reasonable cost of retaliation for the killing of innocent people.
I guess if you support drone strikes in Syria then you would support them in your own neighbourhood should there be a suspected killer on the loose? No?
Edited by ProtoTypical, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Tangle, posted 11-17-2015 3:02 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 3:20 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 8:20 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 168 of 508 (772711)
11-18-2015 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Dogmafood
11-17-2015 11:39 PM


Re: A Few Details
PT writes:
OK then I am good with that.
Fine, pacifism is an honourable, if naive, position.
My point is simply that I don't know why we should be able to do things as a collective that we find to be immoral at the level of the individual. Or why we don't see the hypocrisy of suspending our principles of justice when we try to extract that justice from foreigners. Or the hypocrisy of accepting the killing of innocent people as a reasonable cost of retaliation for the killing of innocent people.
But you know that we do. The bombing of Nagasaki and Dresden are extreme examples of it. The argument is that it is for the greater good. In the situation we are in now, our side goes to extreme lengths not to involve non-combatants whilst admitting that some are inevitable. Our side does not deliberately target them and it makes doing so a war crime.
I guess if you support drone strikes in Syria then you would support them in your own neighbourhood should there be a suspected killer on the loose? No?
Now that's just silly. We have other methods available to us on our own territory; extreme methods are not necessary, we only use the drones because they are the least worst option.
But suppose there was a situation where the only way to prevent another twin towers was to shoot down the terrorists' plane over a populated area with the certainty of innocent deaths, but many less, what should be done? These are the sorts of moral issues we're dealing with.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2015 11:39 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Dogmafood, posted 11-18-2015 10:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 169 of 508 (772714)
11-18-2015 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Dogmafood
11-17-2015 11:39 PM


Re: A Few Details
My point is simply that I don't know why we should be able to do things as a collective that we find to be immoral at the level of the individual.
The notion that we shouldn't would have some strange consequences. For example, you'll have seen the classic bit of libertarian nonsense explaining how taxation is theft, on the basis that it would be if an individual did it. To take another example, if I were to decide you'd done something bad and needed to be punished, so I locked you up, that would be kidnapping. But when a society does it, it's called "justice" ...
Something to think about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Dogmafood, posted 11-17-2015 11:39 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Dogmafood, posted 11-18-2015 8:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 170 of 508 (772719)
11-18-2015 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by vimesey
11-17-2015 5:17 PM


Re: The Question
vimesey writes:
OK, Cheney/Blair were criminals, yes, job done
Splendid. Music to my ears.
vimesey writes:
that involves not repeating the mistakes of the past if we can
Splendid! That means not targeting innocent people which only creates more "terrorists." That is how we got here today.
vimesey writes:
it also involves doing everything we can to stop a fresh evil.
Of course.
Thanks Vimesey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2015 5:17 PM vimesey has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 171 of 508 (772722)
11-18-2015 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 5:18 PM


Re: The Question
It seems you think I only want justice served in the White House? I assure you I want justice served everywhere, including the Middle East.
Targeting civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it or where.
I only ask we not be hypocrites about it. That's what got us in this mess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 5:18 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 1:52 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 172 of 508 (772724)
11-18-2015 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by 1.61803
11-17-2015 5:47 PM


Re: Bush's 'crusade'
1.61803 writes:
ISIL has to be stopped. Why? Because they are fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things.
So, hypothetically, if the US was guilty of fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things, like ISIL is doing, you would strongly urge similar consequences to the US, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by 1.61803, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 173 of 508 (772730)
11-18-2015 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 12:39 PM


Re: Helping The Brethren
Dr Adequate writes:
They don't "want to help poor Muslims", they want to carry out the will of God as they understand it.
I'm glad you have such complete inside information on what "they want".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 1:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 174 of 508 (772732)
11-18-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 12:43 PM


Re: Recruiting Poster
Dr Adequate writes:
ringo writes:
When people want to die for their cause, killing them is not the way to defeat them.
And if the Nazis had thought they'd get 72 virgins if they died for Hitler, we should probably still have shot at them.
Non sequitur. The Nazis didn't want to die for their cause. They were reluctantly willing to risk their lives, just like the Allied troops were, just like the troops on both sides are in every war. In the case of Muslim terrorism, we have people who literally want to die. If you kill them, they win.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 12:43 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(3)
Message 175 of 508 (772733)
11-18-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Tangle
11-18-2015 3:20 AM


Re: A Few Details
Fine, pacifism is an honourable, if naive, position.
The thing that I like about pacifism is that the more people who practice it the better it works as contrasted with violence where the more people who practice it the worse it gets.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 3:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 11:11 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 176 of 508 (772734)
11-18-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Diomedes
11-17-2015 1:11 PM


Re: A Few Details
Diomedes writes:
Often times, we place political correctness on some sacrosanct pedestal and anyone that states something, even a basic fact, is immediately labeled as 'intolerant'.
No you're just channelling Faith.
Diomedes writes:
Europe's society is BETTER than that of Saudi Arabia.
That's a rather silly over-simplification. "Europe's society" is not monolithic. There are parts of Europe that are as bad as Saudi Arabia. Five minutes ago, there was a Communist bloc that was The Great Satan of the moment. Their secular values were called WORSE than religious hegemony at the time.
Diomedes writes:
There is no debate here....
Yes there is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Diomedes, posted 11-17-2015 1:11 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 177 of 508 (772735)
11-18-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by 1.61803
11-17-2015 1:34 PM


Re: Recruiting Poster
~1.6 writes:
Well they better get ready for some grade A encouragement in the coming weeks from France, Russia, and the USA.
And France, Russia and the USA had better get ready for wave after wave of new recruits and new terrorism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 11-17-2015 1:34 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by 1.61803, posted 11-18-2015 7:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 178 of 508 (772736)
11-18-2015 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Dr Adequate
11-17-2015 3:08 PM


Re: A Few Details
Dr Adequate writes:
I was passionately and vocally against the Iraq war.
Good for you. What changed?
Dr Adequate writes:
The question is: what should we do now?
We should avoid repeating the mistakes of Iraq. Defeating ISIS militarily will not put an end to terrorism any more than defeating Saddam Hussein did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-17-2015 3:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 1:46 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 179 of 508 (772737)
11-18-2015 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Dogmafood
11-18-2015 10:55 AM


Re: A Few Details
PT writes:
The thing that I like about pacifism is that the more people who practice it the better it works as contrasted with violence where the more people who practice it the worse it gets.
Sadly, it's never been proven to work has it? Over here we have the 'peace in our time' letter from Hitler to remind us that the bad guys don't feel the same way.
Chamberlain landed at Heston Aerodrome on 30 September 1938, and spoke to the crowds there:
"The settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem, which has now been achieved is, in my view, only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace. This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine. Some of you, perhaps, have already heard what it contains but I would just like to read it to you: ' ... We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again.'[3]"
Later that day he stood outside 10 Downing Street and again read from the document and concluded:
"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Dogmafood, posted 11-18-2015 10:55 AM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 11:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 180 of 508 (772740)
11-18-2015 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Tangle
11-18-2015 11:11 AM


Re: A Few Details
Using Hitler's duplicity as evidence that peace can not work when more people earnestly practice peace?
What is wrong with you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 11:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 11:33 AM dronestar has not replied

  
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