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Author | Topic: Another one that hurts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
dronester writes: What is wrong with you? I'm a realistJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Tangle writes: dronester writes: What is wrong with you? I'm a realist For you it seems that sentiments that begin something like "If there were more pacifism..." are akin to "If pigs could fly..." I don't disagree. But what I would say is that we have created a monster that we may now have to slay, and that might require the very kind of indiscriminate killing we abhor. I hope we simultaneously make every effort to find peaceful solutions, but we're at the point where we can't wait for them. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
We have created a monster and he is us. But what I would say is that we have created a monster that we may now have to slay, and that might require the very kind of indiscriminate killing we abhor. We can either win at all costs or we can honourably lose.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Percy writes: For you it seems that sentiments that begin something like "If there were more pacifism..." are akin to "If pigs could fly..." I don't disagree. I don't think it's as impossible as flying pigs, but it is a totally idealistic and vain hope. Wars between and inside tribes and nations have been occurring since there have been humans banging rocks together - and probably before. During the the second world war there were pacifists on both sides - they didn't fair well. Maybe if the majority on both sides were avowed pacifists there'd be a chance but even then, it probably wouldn't work - pacifists don't seem to make good leaders. When you get one - like we did in 1938 - they tend to make wrong assumptions about the other side. Islam claims to be the religion of peace; it's leaders don't seem to agree. We now have the strange situation of the leader of the opposition in our parliament refusing point blank to press the nuke button if he was required too, rendering our trillion dollar nuclear deterrent no deterrent at all if he got in power. This week he's saying that a shoot to kill policy against terrorists on the street, like Paris this weekend, would be wrong. It's not going down terribly well considering the circumstances. Many of us admire his courage in saying these things and sticking to his principles - and even admiring his principles. But in the meantime we need a credible response to those who would wipe us off the face of the earth if they could. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Percy writes: and that might require the very kind of indiscriminate killing we abhor. Yep, if there's one thing that the US hates, it's indiscriminate killing. Our killings are ALWAYS purposeful:
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
In today's New York Times: In Rise of ISIS, No Single Missed Key but Many Strands of Blame
I had wrongly assumed that the Islamic State was a recent "bright idea" to resurrect an old glory, but direct roots date to at least 2004. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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An editorial in today's New York Times endorses the idea of providing positive alternatives to fundamentalist Islam: Cabs, Camels or ISIS
A couple excerpts:
quote: --Percy
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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I believe U.S. foreign policy out here should progress as follows: Where there is disorder, help create order, because without order nothing good can happen. Sadly, we seem to have the opposite effect. I think the main issue is most of our politicians are oblivious to cultural differences outside of our own. So we attempt to graft our Western cultural sensibilities onto the Middle East without any clear understanding of the internal dynamics of the area. This was exemplified in spades when Bush 2.0 (El Presidente Stupido) was famously quoted as saying "I thought they were all Muslims" when he was being explained the difference between Sunni and Shiite. It's this level of daft ignorance that has us bumbling around like idiots whenever we venture into that region.
To sustainably defeat bad ISIS Sunnis you need good non-ISIS Sunnis to create an island of decency in their place. Agree totally. As I mentioned in earlier posts, this needs to start with a ground swell in the Islamic world itself. Moderates in both Sunni and Shiite branches need to work in unison. Not an easy ask, but wars have been fought in the past with strange bedfellows. i.e. Communists fighting along the Western Allies during WWII. How that can be achieved, hard to say. Of course, the other elephant in the room from the USA's perspective is Putin and his support of the Asad regime in Syria. By assisting in the quelling of the ISIS menace, we will indirectly be helping Russia and Asad. But ultimately, I think it has come to the point of accepting the lesser of two evils. In the end, the ULTIMATE moral of the story for us is simply: do NOT elect idiot halfwit presidents who start wars in the Middle East and destabilize the entire region. Funny how I remember Bush 2.0 apologists saying history will 'vindicate' his decisions. Yah, me thinks that is highly unlikely considering what we are seeing now.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Good for you. What changed? The enemy, and the reason. I knew for a fact that Saddam's Iraq didn't have any Secret Weapons Of Mass Destruction, and that it was a stupid pretext for a war that we shouldn't fight, and that this would destabilize the Middle East, and that this was a war crime because it was a mere excuse for a war. I also know for a fact that if we let ISIS get away with their shit then we're like the people who appeased the Nazis, or like how we let Pol Pot get away with killing 25% of Cambodians.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I only ask we not be hypocrites about it. I'm not. Hooray! Job done. That was all you asked, according to you.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Diomedes writes: do NOT elect idiot halfwit presidents who start wars in the Middle East and destabilize the entire region. Probably not gonna happen. American half-wit voters want a president who is a pro-military half-wit. Except for possibly Rand Paul, all the candidates are all extremely pro-military-solution. I am sure that after the recent Paris massacre, they will step up their tough-guy act even more. Hillary is the worst, she enthusiastically supported retarded criminals Bush/Chaney/Blair going into the Iraqi war and equally shares the DIRECT blame for ISIL's rise. She enthusiastically and unilaterally supports Israel's human rights crimes against the Palestinians. As Secretary of State, she was a human right's criminal. The Clinton Foundation takes funds/bribes from human right disaster nations including Saudi Arabia (read the entire Znet link below). I could go on and on, but all in all, she is a filthy vermin of a human being.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I'm glad you have such complete inside information on what "they want". I obtained this information by reading their public statements about what they want. It's not "inside information". It's what they say in their public statements.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Dr Adequate writes: I'm not. Hooray! Job done. It WAS a terriific battle. We'll both carry emotional scars far into the future. But thank god, it is now over. And now that my life's primary goal is finished, I can start working on something I think is even more important, . . . a television sitcom about a sassy robot.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
We have created a monster and he is us. We don't behead people for being gay or for being Christian or for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rape and slavery are not part of our ideology. We are not the monster.
We can either win at all costs or we can honourably lose. Even more if this is our fault, we cannot honorably lose. HONOR is not where we say: we fucked it up, so we must not lift a finger to put it right.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 304 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
It WAS a terriific battle. We'll both carry emotional scars far into the future. But thank god, it is now over. And now that my life's primary goal is finished, I can start working on something I think is even more important, . . . a television sitcom about a sassy robot. This may have been a smart sassy reply. Nonetheless, I have no idea why you wrote that. Maybe you were trying to make a joke and it misfired. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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