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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 181 of 508 (772742)
11-18-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by dronestar
11-18-2015 11:18 AM


Re: A Few Details
dronester writes:
What is wrong with you?
I'm a realist

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 11:18 AM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Percy, posted 11-18-2015 11:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 182 of 508 (772746)
11-18-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Tangle
11-18-2015 11:33 AM


Re: A Few Details
Tangle writes:
dronester writes:
What is wrong with you?
I'm a realist
For you it seems that sentiments that begin something like "If there were more pacifism..." are akin to "If pigs could fly..." I don't disagree.
But what I would say is that we have created a monster that we may now have to slay, and that might require the very kind of indiscriminate killing we abhor. I hope we simultaneously make every effort to find peaceful solutions, but we're at the point where we can't wait for them.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 11:33 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:56 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2015 12:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 185 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 12:16 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 183 of 508 (772748)
11-18-2015 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Percy
11-18-2015 11:50 AM


Re: A Few Details
Percy writes:
But what I would say is that we have created a monster that we may now have to slay, and that might require the very kind of indiscriminate killing we abhor.
We have created a monster and he is us.
We can either win at all costs or we can honourably lose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Percy, posted 11-18-2015 11:50 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 2:16 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 184 of 508 (772750)
11-18-2015 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Percy
11-18-2015 11:50 AM


Re: A Few Details
Percy writes:
For you it seems that sentiments that begin something like "If there were more pacifism..." are akin to "If pigs could fly..." I don't disagree.
I don't think it's as impossible as flying pigs, but it is a totally idealistic and vain hope. Wars between and inside tribes and nations have been occurring since there have been humans banging rocks together - and probably before. During the the second world war there were pacifists on both sides - they didn't fair well.
Maybe if the majority on both sides were avowed pacifists there'd be a chance but even then, it probably wouldn't work - pacifists don't seem to make good leaders. When you get one - like we did in 1938 - they tend to make wrong assumptions about the other side. Islam claims to be the religion of peace; it's leaders don't seem to agree.
We now have the strange situation of the leader of the opposition in our parliament refusing point blank to press the nuke button if he was required too, rendering our trillion dollar nuclear deterrent no deterrent at all if he got in power. This week he's saying that a shoot to kill policy against terrorists on the street, like Paris this weekend, would be wrong.
It's not going down terribly well considering the circumstances. Many of us admire his courage in saying these things and sticking to his principles - and even admiring his principles. But in the meantime we need a credible response to those who would wipe us off the face of the earth if they could.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Percy, posted 11-18-2015 11:50 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2015 3:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 185 of 508 (772752)
11-18-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Percy
11-18-2015 11:50 AM


Re: A Few Details
Percy writes:
and that might require the very kind of indiscriminate killing we abhor.
Yep, if there's one thing that the US hates, it's indiscriminate killing. Our killings are ALWAYS purposeful:
quote:
Was the U.S. attack on the Kunduz hospital a war crime?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...unduz-hospital-a-war-crime

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Percy, posted 11-18-2015 11:50 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 186 of 508 (772753)
11-18-2015 12:29 PM


One Account of the Rise of the Islamic State
In today's New York Times: In Rise of ISIS, No Single Missed Key but Many Strands of Blame
I had wrongly assumed that the Islamic State was a recent "bright idea" to resurrect an old glory, but direct roots date to at least 2004.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 187 of 508 (772754)
11-18-2015 12:44 PM


Yeah, what he said.
An editorial in today's New York Times endorses the idea of providing positive alternatives to fundamentalist Islam: Cabs, Camels or ISIS
A couple excerpts:
quote:
I believe U.S. foreign policy out here should progress as follows: Where there is disorder, help create order, because without order nothing good can happen.
...
To sustainably defeat bad ISIS Sunnis you need good non-ISIS Sunnis to create an island of decency in their place.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Diomedes, posted 11-18-2015 1:13 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(2)
Message 188 of 508 (772755)
11-18-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Percy
11-18-2015 12:44 PM


Re: Yeah, what he said.
I believe U.S. foreign policy out here should progress as follows: Where there is disorder, help create order, because without order nothing good can happen.
Sadly, we seem to have the opposite effect. I think the main issue is most of our politicians are oblivious to cultural differences outside of our own. So we attempt to graft our Western cultural sensibilities onto the Middle East without any clear understanding of the internal dynamics of the area. This was exemplified in spades when Bush 2.0 (El Presidente Stupido) was famously quoted as saying "I thought they were all Muslims" when he was being explained the difference between Sunni and Shiite. It's this level of daft ignorance that has us bumbling around like idiots whenever we venture into that region.
To sustainably defeat bad ISIS Sunnis you need good non-ISIS Sunnis to create an island of decency in their place.
Agree totally. As I mentioned in earlier posts, this needs to start with a ground swell in the Islamic world itself. Moderates in both Sunni and Shiite branches need to work in unison. Not an easy ask, but wars have been fought in the past with strange bedfellows. i.e. Communists fighting along the Western Allies during WWII. How that can be achieved, hard to say.
Of course, the other elephant in the room from the USA's perspective is Putin and his support of the Asad regime in Syria. By assisting in the quelling of the ISIS menace, we will indirectly be helping Russia and Asad. But ultimately, I think it has come to the point of accepting the lesser of two evils.
In the end, the ULTIMATE moral of the story for us is simply: do NOT elect idiot halfwit presidents who start wars in the Middle East and destabilize the entire region. Funny how I remember Bush 2.0 apologists saying history will 'vindicate' his decisions. Yah, me thinks that is highly unlikely considering what we are seeing now.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 189 of 508 (772757)
11-18-2015 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by ringo
11-18-2015 11:09 AM


Re: A Few Details
Good for you. What changed?
The enemy, and the reason.
I knew for a fact that Saddam's Iraq didn't have any Secret Weapons Of Mass Destruction, and that it was a stupid pretext for a war that we shouldn't fight, and that this would destabilize the Middle East, and that this was a war crime because it was a mere excuse for a war.
I also know for a fact that if we let ISIS get away with their shit then we're like the people who appeased the Nazis, or like how we let Pol Pot get away with killing 25% of Cambodians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:09 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by ringo, posted 11-19-2015 10:41 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 190 of 508 (772758)
11-18-2015 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by dronestar
11-18-2015 9:26 AM


Re: The Question
I only ask we not be hypocrites about it.
I'm not. Hooray! Job done. That was all you asked, according to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 9:26 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 2:14 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 191 of 508 (772760)
11-18-2015 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Diomedes
11-18-2015 1:13 PM


Re: Yeah, what he said.
Diomedes writes:
do NOT elect idiot halfwit presidents who start wars in the Middle East and destabilize the entire region.
Probably not gonna happen. American half-wit voters want a president who is a pro-military half-wit.
Except for possibly Rand Paul, all the candidates are all extremely pro-military-solution. I am sure that after the recent Paris massacre, they will step up their tough-guy act even more.
Hillary is the worst, she enthusiastically supported retarded criminals Bush/Chaney/Blair going into the Iraqi war and equally shares the DIRECT blame for ISIL's rise. She enthusiastically and unilaterally supports Israel's human rights crimes against the Palestinians. As Secretary of State, she was a human right's criminal. The Clinton Foundation takes funds/bribes from human right disaster nations including Saudi Arabia (read the entire Znet link below). I could go on and on, but all in all, she is a filthy vermin of a human being.
quote:
What Congress Should Ask Hillary Clinton
As the article recounts, Clinton approved a massive weapons sale to Saudi Arabia, almost certainly involving weapons since used to bomb innocent families in Yemen, despite official State Department positions on Saudi Arabia and, I might add, in apparent violation of the Arms Export Control Act.
In the years before Hillary Clinton became secretary of state, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia contributed at least $10 million to the Clinton Foundation, the philanthropic enterprise she has overseen with her husband, former president Bill Clinton. Just two months before the deal was finalized, Boeing the defense contractor that manufactures one of the fighter jets the Saudis were especially keen to acquire, the F-15 contributed $900,000 to the Clinton Foundation, according to a company press release.
The Saudi deal was one of dozens of arms sales approved by Hillary Clinton’s State Department that placed weapons in the hands of governments that had also donated money to the Clinton family philanthropic empire, an International Business Times investigation has found.
. . . American [military] contractors also donated to the Clinton Foundation while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state and in some cases made personal payments to Bill Clinton for speaking engagements.
Clinton’s State Department the next year approved a one-year 70 percent increase in military export authorizations to the country (Algeria). The increase included authorizations of almost 50,000 items classified as ‘toxicological agents, including chemical agents, biological agents and associated equipment’ after the State Department did not authorize the export of any of such items to Algeria in the prior year.
On a trip to Moscow early in her tenure as secretary of state, Hillary Rodham Clinton played the role of international saleswoman, pressing Russian government officials to sign a multibillion-dollar deal to buy dozens of aircraft from Boeing. A month later, Clinton was in China, where she jubilantly announced that the aerospace giant would be writing a generous check to help resuscitate floundering U.S. efforts to host a pavilion at the upcoming World’s Fair. Boeing, she said, ‘has just agreed to double its contribution to $2 million.’ Clinton did not point out that, to secure the donation, the State Department had set aside ethics guidelines that first prohibited solicitations of Boeing and then later permitted only a $1 million gift from the company. Boeing had been included on a list of firms to be avoided because of its frequent reliance on the government for help negotiating overseas business and concern that a donation could be seen as an attempt to curry favor with U.S. officials.
Zcomm » What Congress Should Ask Hillary Clinton

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 192 of 508 (772761)
11-18-2015 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
11-18-2015 10:47 AM


Re: Helping The Brethren
I'm glad you have such complete inside information on what "they want".
I obtained this information by reading their public statements about what they want. It's not "inside information". It's what they say in their public statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 10:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 193 of 508 (772762)
11-18-2015 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2015 1:52 PM


Re: The Question
Dr Adequate writes:
I'm not. Hooray! Job done.
It WAS a terriific battle. We'll both carry emotional scars far into the future. But thank god, it is now over.
And now that my life's primary goal is finished, I can start working on something I think is even more important, . . . a television sitcom about a sassy robot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 1:52 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 2:21 PM dronestar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 194 of 508 (772763)
11-18-2015 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
11-18-2015 11:56 AM


Re: A Few Details
We have created a monster and he is us.
We don't behead people for being gay or for being Christian or for being the wrong kind of Muslim. Rape and slavery are not part of our ideology. We are not the monster.
We can either win at all costs or we can honourably lose.
Even more if this is our fault, we cannot honorably lose. HONOR is not where we say: we fucked it up, so we must not lift a finger to put it right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 2:25 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 11-19-2015 10:49 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 195 of 508 (772764)
11-18-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by dronestar
11-18-2015 2:14 PM


Re: The Question
It WAS a terriific battle. We'll both carry emotional scars far into the future. But thank god, it is now over.
And now that my life's primary goal is finished, I can start working on something I think is even more important, . . . a television sitcom about a sassy robot.
This may have been a smart sassy reply. Nonetheless, I have no idea why you wrote that. Maybe you were trying to make a joke and it misfired.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 2:14 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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